Maybe we need a different approach. As you don’t trust the numbers like i presented before where antisemitic hate crime reporting is 10-20 times as high as islamophobic hate crime reporting, what is a sufficient, or acceptable matrix that you would trust? I’m sure we can find out something we can both agree on. I’m prepared to accept whatever result, maybe i’m full of it but if there is no metric that you accept, there doesn’t seem to be any reason to debate in good faith.
I don’t trust British numbers because I lived in the damn place and claims of anti-semitism there have been politically weaponized and heavily so - when the rules are such that a Jewish Holocaust Survivor (!!!) gets deemed an anti-semite for criticizing Israel, you know the whole thing is bollocks.
I’ve already went through all the reasons why the anti-semitic label has lost much of its meaning and hence the numbers for “anti-semitic” racial hate are muddied beyond salvation and why “perception” numbers (which is what you provided) are even easier to shift with Propaganda, and that what you claim doesn’t match what I heard over the years of reported experience of actual Jewish People or even what I see pop up in the small progessive leftwing part I’m involved in which is heavily into fighting against racism (and such things definitely pop-up for some other ethnic groups), so won’t go into that (again). In fact I literally just deleted a large block I wrote about it :/
The issue is that you’ve persisted in using flawed metrics to prove your point that “Jews are not safe to live anywhere else”.
How about this: show me proof that the number of violent deaths per capita of Jewish People in any European country are actually higher than for the whole population.
“Violent deaths” is a pretty concrete metric that goes straight to show insecurity. Unlike perception of racial hate, death counts cannot be influenced by propaganda and it’s pretty hard to over or under report violent deaths (at least in Europe, were the Authorities keep a tight eye on people suddenly appearing dead). The number of violent deaths is also strongly positively correlated with violence in general so the former count should be a pretty good indicator of broader insecurity.
If Jews are dying to violence in Europe more than other people then there is no doubt whatsoever that they are less safe.
Can i count attempted homicide? The problem with violent death in europe is that it’s quite skewed by terrorist attacks, like in france 2015, 31 were “homecide or attempt” but it doesnt split that statistic into two columns which it should i.m.o, and also most countries don’t seem to register anti semitic killing seprately (maybe some because there were none/few?)
Are violent attacks not a valid reason to be afraid for your safety? That looks easier to look up as many countries does register that statistic.
Assuming that “attempted homicide” is determined by an external 3rd party, I expect it not to be skewed by the victim’s own perceptions or beliefs so it makes sense to also consider attempted homicide when you can’t separate it from homicide.
Also keep in mind that you’re not supposed to be looking specifically for murders deemed “anti-semitic killing”, just killings in general of any person, per-capita and killings of people who are Jewish in relation to the number of Jewish people in that country, independently of the motive having been determined as being anti-semitism.
Going after murders specifically labelled as anti-semitic would just be getting us back to the problem of the legal classification of anti-semitism - in other words, countries with a broader definition of anti-semitism (such as the ones deeming criticism of Israel as being anti-semitism) having a bias would be more likely to label as “anti-semitic” murders of Jewish people which were not in fact committed due to the ethnicity of the victim, than other countries. Further, only looking at murders for which the motive had been determined would reduce the total of cases considered to just those murders which were successfully prosecuted (which depending on the country can be quite a low fraction of the total), since (I believe) a death can be officially counted as a murder purely based on the autopsy even if the killer has not been found, tried and convicted and his or her motive confirmed during a trial. Also the “how serious are the authorities at investigating a murder depending on the ethnicity of the victim” factor might skew the results if you’re limiting your numbers to tried and convicted cases. (Whilst not so in life, we’re all equal in death and a corpse is a corpse, so I expect that a coroner’s determination after examining a corpse that the person was killed should independent of the ethnicity of the victim).
By just looking at all murders without looking at anything else but the ethnicity of the victim, my expectation is that anti-semitic murders will appear in the numbers as more Jewish people getting murdered as a proportion of all Jewish people than the rate for the overall population - with this method any judgment passed saying the motivation of the murder is not at all examined, hence any possible “inflation” in the use of the “anti-semitic” classification makes no difference whatsoever for the results, and equally any bias the authorities might have in terms of how much resources they dedicate to investigating a murder depending on the victim’s ethnicity does not impact the numbers since they’re based on the coroner’s determination alone.
If in aggregate Jews are getting killed more often than the population in general, the obvious conclusion is that the excess of Jewish people being victims of murder above the general population is because of them being killed due to their ethnicity, which would confirm your point that Jewish people are less safe than the rest (not merely feel less safe, which you already proved and I never disputed, but objectively are less safe).
For 2 and 3, i don’t believe any ethnicity is exempt.
All that statistic will show is that it’s far more dangerous to be a criminal wifebeating drunk than the average population and i haven’t heard of many jew-gangs.
Example- a gang fight causes 100 people to die. One jew is killed from an antisemitic crime.
Now, if the jewish population is 1% of the total population, we would have an equal amount of jewish deaths as the average population, but criminals mostly kill eachother so it’s still obviously more dangerous to be a criminal than a jew but the antisemitic crime weighs more compared to the non-criminal population. So we would have to exclude a whole bunch of murder causes to get a reasonable result
and define those, or you know, just use the antisemitic deaths as a factor from the start.
Were did you get a that list of categories for most murders which doesn’t have non-gang-related crime? Because most crime doesn’t involve gangs.
Are you classifying all organised crime as being gangs (i.e. classifying the Mafia as a “gang”) and all non-gang related but crime related murder under “spontaneous”? Because that’s the only way you’ll end up with with that list of top categories for murders and in that case since those “gangs” aren’t just bands of teenagers from poor backgrounds, I’m pretty sure there are Jewish people in “gangs”.
Further, your entire point rests on the assumption that Jews are less likely to be involved in or with violent criminals than other people - in other words that Jews are different from other people in something which is unrelated to one’s religion, which is pretty straightforward racial prejudice and easily disproven by there being Jews committing crimes, including murder, in Israel (in fact if there is once thing the Genocide in Gaza proves beyond doubt is that some Jews have the capacity of the most horrific behavior - same as everybody else).
Without that prejudiced assumption, then as Jews are equally involved in crime as everybody else the fraction of Jews that end up dead due to that should be the same as everybody else and thus have equal impact on both the rate of Jews being victims of murder and that of the general population, leaving us once again with only anti-semitic violence to explain any higher rate of Jews being murdered.
Frankly, the only thing that I would expect would impact the number to yield a lower rate of Jewish victims of murder compared to the broader population would be that in Europe Jews tend to be Middle Class or above - mainly because they’re well established, compared with for example immigrants from poorer countries - and the probability of being murdered is affected by one’s social status (basically poorer people tend to be murdered more than middle-class people) and even then, if Jews in Europe tend to die less than average because they’re well established and prosperous, that de facto means they’re safe in Europe (certainly safer than the average person), which disproves your original statement - my whole point has always been that Jews can in fact be safe elsewhere than Israel, not that anti-semitism does not exist.
Maybe we need a different approach. As you don’t trust the numbers like i presented before where antisemitic hate crime reporting is 10-20 times as high as islamophobic hate crime reporting, what is a sufficient, or acceptable matrix that you would trust? I’m sure we can find out something we can both agree on. I’m prepared to accept whatever result, maybe i’m full of it but if there is no metric that you accept, there doesn’t seem to be any reason to debate in good faith.
I don’t trust British numbers because I lived in the damn place and claims of anti-semitism there have been politically weaponized and heavily so - when the rules are such that a Jewish Holocaust Survivor (!!!) gets deemed an anti-semite for criticizing Israel, you know the whole thing is bollocks.
I’ve already went through all the reasons why the anti-semitic label has lost much of its meaning and hence the numbers for “anti-semitic” racial hate are muddied beyond salvation and why “perception” numbers (which is what you provided) are even easier to shift with Propaganda, and that what you claim doesn’t match what I heard over the years of reported experience of actual Jewish People or even what I see pop up in the small progessive leftwing part I’m involved in which is heavily into fighting against racism (and such things definitely pop-up for some other ethnic groups), so won’t go into that (again). In fact I literally just deleted a large block I wrote about it :/
The issue is that you’ve persisted in using flawed metrics to prove your point that “Jews are not safe to live anywhere else”.
How about this: show me proof that the number of violent deaths per capita of Jewish People in any European country are actually higher than for the whole population.
“Violent deaths” is a pretty concrete metric that goes straight to show insecurity. Unlike perception of racial hate, death counts cannot be influenced by propaganda and it’s pretty hard to over or under report violent deaths (at least in Europe, were the Authorities keep a tight eye on people suddenly appearing dead). The number of violent deaths is also strongly positively correlated with violence in general so the former count should be a pretty good indicator of broader insecurity.
If Jews are dying to violence in Europe more than other people then there is no doubt whatsoever that they are less safe.
Can i count attempted homicide? The problem with violent death in europe is that it’s quite skewed by terrorist attacks, like in france 2015, 31 were “homecide or attempt” but it doesnt split that statistic into two columns which it should i.m.o, and also most countries don’t seem to register anti semitic killing seprately (maybe some because there were none/few?) Are violent attacks not a valid reason to be afraid for your safety? That looks easier to look up as many countries does register that statistic.
Assuming that “attempted homicide” is determined by an external 3rd party, I expect it not to be skewed by the victim’s own perceptions or beliefs so it makes sense to also consider attempted homicide when you can’t separate it from homicide.
Also keep in mind that you’re not supposed to be looking specifically for murders deemed “anti-semitic killing”, just killings in general of any person, per-capita and killings of people who are Jewish in relation to the number of Jewish people in that country, independently of the motive having been determined as being anti-semitism.
Going after murders specifically labelled as anti-semitic would just be getting us back to the problem of the legal classification of anti-semitism - in other words, countries with a broader definition of anti-semitism (such as the ones deeming criticism of Israel as being anti-semitism) having a bias would be more likely to label as “anti-semitic” murders of Jewish people which were not in fact committed due to the ethnicity of the victim, than other countries. Further, only looking at murders for which the motive had been determined would reduce the total of cases considered to just those murders which were successfully prosecuted (which depending on the country can be quite a low fraction of the total), since (I believe) a death can be officially counted as a murder purely based on the autopsy even if the killer has not been found, tried and convicted and his or her motive confirmed during a trial. Also the “how serious are the authorities at investigating a murder depending on the ethnicity of the victim” factor might skew the results if you’re limiting your numbers to tried and convicted cases. (Whilst not so in life, we’re all equal in death and a corpse is a corpse, so I expect that a coroner’s determination after examining a corpse that the person was killed should independent of the ethnicity of the victim).
By just looking at all murders without looking at anything else but the ethnicity of the victim, my expectation is that anti-semitic murders will appear in the numbers as more Jewish people getting murdered as a proportion of all Jewish people than the rate for the overall population - with this method any judgment passed saying the motivation of the murder is not at all examined, hence any possible “inflation” in the use of the “anti-semitic” classification makes no difference whatsoever for the results, and equally any bias the authorities might have in terms of how much resources they dedicate to investigating a murder depending on the victim’s ethnicity does not impact the numbers since they’re based on the coroner’s determination alone.
If in aggregate Jews are getting killed more often than the population in general, the obvious conclusion is that the excess of Jewish people being victims of murder above the general population is because of them being killed due to their ethnicity, which would confirm your point that Jewish people are less safe than the rest (not merely feel less safe, which you already proved and I never disputed, but objectively are less safe).
I honestly think that might be a pretty bad metric because most murders belong to three categories.
For 2 and 3, i don’t believe any ethnicity is exempt.
All that statistic will show is that it’s far more dangerous to be a criminal wifebeating drunk than the average population and i haven’t heard of many jew-gangs.
Example- a gang fight causes 100 people to die. One jew is killed from an antisemitic crime. Now, if the jewish population is 1% of the total population, we would have an equal amount of jewish deaths as the average population, but criminals mostly kill eachother so it’s still obviously more dangerous to be a criminal than a jew but the antisemitic crime weighs more compared to the non-criminal population. So we would have to exclude a whole bunch of murder causes to get a reasonable result and define those, or you know, just use the antisemitic deaths as a factor from the start.
Were did you get a that list of categories for most murders which doesn’t have non-gang-related crime? Because most crime doesn’t involve gangs.
Are you classifying all organised crime as being gangs (i.e. classifying the Mafia as a “gang”) and all non-gang related but crime related murder under “spontaneous”? Because that’s the only way you’ll end up with with that list of top categories for murders and in that case since those “gangs” aren’t just bands of teenagers from poor backgrounds, I’m pretty sure there are Jewish people in “gangs”.
Further, your entire point rests on the assumption that Jews are less likely to be involved in or with violent criminals than other people - in other words that Jews are different from other people in something which is unrelated to one’s religion, which is pretty straightforward racial prejudice and easily disproven by there being Jews committing crimes, including murder, in Israel (in fact if there is once thing the Genocide in Gaza proves beyond doubt is that some Jews have the capacity of the most horrific behavior - same as everybody else).
Without that prejudiced assumption, then as Jews are equally involved in crime as everybody else the fraction of Jews that end up dead due to that should be the same as everybody else and thus have equal impact on both the rate of Jews being victims of murder and that of the general population, leaving us once again with only anti-semitic violence to explain any higher rate of Jews being murdered.
Frankly, the only thing that I would expect would impact the number to yield a lower rate of Jewish victims of murder compared to the broader population would be that in Europe Jews tend to be Middle Class or above - mainly because they’re well established, compared with for example immigrants from poorer countries - and the probability of being murdered is affected by one’s social status (basically poorer people tend to be murdered more than middle-class people) and even then, if Jews in Europe tend to die less than average because they’re well established and prosperous, that de facto means they’re safe in Europe (certainly safer than the average person), which disproves your original statement - my whole point has always been that Jews can in fact be safe elsewhere than Israel, not that anti-semitism does not exist.