Liberalism is the start of the left unless you are incredibly eurocentric. Most of the world is still arguing liberalism vs authoritarianism and Europe is adopting that once again.
Liberalism was “the left” in the 1700s and has desperately tried to maintain that label ever since, all while doing anything it can to preserve the status quo with violence.
“Authoritarianism” isn’t an ideology, nor does it have a corresponding mode of production. That isn’t the argument. The increased despotism in Europe is a consequence of capitalism’s decay, it’s a very liberal despotism.
Liberalism is not the start of the left. Liberalism is the status quo in capitalist society, it’s the ideological component of capitalism. The start of leftism is socialism, the start of rightism is capitalism.
No “authoritarianism” is a end point on the binary that should used rather than capitalism vs anticapitalism it reflects the actual debates going on in non-Western nations
You whole position is eurocentric because it accepts capitalism and liberalism as a default state.
First of all, ideologies are not recipes, nor choices made by people, but a product of material conditions and reality. There isn’t a debate between “authoritarianism” and “liberalism,” there’s a decaying liberal capitalist system and different classes pushing for their own interests.
Secondly, it isn’t a Eurocentric view. The majority of the world is liberal. Countries like China and Cuba that have managed to move into socialism are not the majority. What’s left and right isn’t determined by the median opinion, but between moving onto the next mode of production or trying to retain the current system (or even move backwards).
There is no “authoritarian vs liberalism” debate, they aren’t even antithetical to each other. It isn’t a spectrum. Most liberal countries are despotic.
That’s a very marxist perspective. There very much is a debate going on all across the planet as to how much freedom from government and religion that people should have. If you bother to educate yourself on the politics of Muslim dominant nations you will see they are having those discussions right now.
To be clear Cowbee, you are talking theory and I am asking you to pull your head out of your books and look at the world around you.
People can talk all they want, but “debate” matters very little in terms of actual systems of political economy. Iran is fairly liberal and nationalist right now, as an example. I despise your insinuation that I simply only read theory and don’t pay attention to the world around me, while you draw false binaries and trap yourself into an idealist worldview.
Again, discussion matters far less than what the actual system is, and furthermore leftism in, say, Iran would be socialist. You have a very liberal view of liberalism, humorously enough.
If you despise my assertion that you only read theory you should not make claims like “Iran is fairly liberal now”. The Iranian government has a very heavy hand in that economy and economic freedoms don’t exist like they do in capitalust economies.
Try looking into African nations that are liberal in name only and literally any Muslim dominant nation that permits religion to have a direct role in the government if you want to see societies that are debating what degree of liberalism is acceptable.
The Iranian government has a very heavy hand in that economy and economic freedoms don’t exist like they do in capitalust economies.
Many of us are socialists, and we don’t take issue with a state constraining the capitalist class’ economic freedom. If you live in a neoliberal hellscape like most of us, you ought to want it more constrained, too.
Im not arguing whether it us acceptable for the state to restrain private industry, but if you are claiming that Iran is liberal they cannot do this to the extent they currently are doing. My point is Iran is not a liberal nation
Liberalism is not opposed to government intervention. Iran is heavily based on private property. That’s like saying the US isn’t liberal because of the millitary industrial complex.
You’re confusing liberalism, the ideology, with vague ideas of personal freedom.
Most of the privatization of Iran has been going extremely slowly and the economy is still heavily controlled by the central authority. They on paper suggested things 15-20 years ago that they have been slow to adopt.
Liberalism is the start of the left unless you are incredibly eurocentric. Most of the world is still arguing liberalism vs authoritarianism and Europe is adopting that once again.
Liberalism is authoritarian.
Liberalism was “the left” in the 1700s and has desperately tried to maintain that label ever since, all while doing anything it can to preserve the status quo with violence.
“Authoritarianism” isn’t an ideology, nor does it have a corresponding mode of production. That isn’t the argument. The increased despotism in Europe is a consequence of capitalism’s decay, it’s a very liberal despotism.
Liberalism is not the start of the left. Liberalism is the status quo in capitalist society, it’s the ideological component of capitalism. The start of leftism is socialism, the start of rightism is capitalism.
No “authoritarianism” is a end point on the binary that should used rather than capitalism vs anticapitalism it reflects the actual debates going on in non-Western nations
You whole position is eurocentric because it accepts capitalism and liberalism as a default state.
This is wrong.
First of all, ideologies are not recipes, nor choices made by people, but a product of material conditions and reality. There isn’t a debate between “authoritarianism” and “liberalism,” there’s a decaying liberal capitalist system and different classes pushing for their own interests.
Secondly, it isn’t a Eurocentric view. The majority of the world is liberal. Countries like China and Cuba that have managed to move into socialism are not the majority. What’s left and right isn’t determined by the median opinion, but between moving onto the next mode of production or trying to retain the current system (or even move backwards).
There is no “authoritarian vs liberalism” debate, they aren’t even antithetical to each other. It isn’t a spectrum. Most liberal countries are despotic.
That’s a very marxist perspective. There very much is a debate going on all across the planet as to how much freedom from government and religion that people should have. If you bother to educate yourself on the politics of Muslim dominant nations you will see they are having those discussions right now.
To be clear Cowbee, you are talking theory and I am asking you to pull your head out of your books and look at the world around you.
People can talk all they want, but “debate” matters very little in terms of actual systems of political economy. Iran is fairly liberal and nationalist right now, as an example. I despise your insinuation that I simply only read theory and don’t pay attention to the world around me, while you draw false binaries and trap yourself into an idealist worldview.
Again, discussion matters far less than what the actual system is, and furthermore leftism in, say, Iran would be socialist. You have a very liberal view of liberalism, humorously enough.
If you despise my assertion that you only read theory you should not make claims like “Iran is fairly liberal now”. The Iranian government has a very heavy hand in that economy and economic freedoms don’t exist like they do in capitalust economies.
Try looking into African nations that are liberal in name only and literally any Muslim dominant nation that permits religion to have a direct role in the government if you want to see societies that are debating what degree of liberalism is acceptable.
Many of us are socialists, and we don’t take issue with a state constraining the capitalist class’ economic freedom. If you live in a neoliberal hellscape like most of us, you ought to want it more constrained, too.
Im not arguing whether it us acceptable for the state to restrain private industry, but if you are claiming that Iran is liberal they cannot do this to the extent they currently are doing. My point is Iran is not a liberal nation
You put a lot of superficial ‘I’m smart’ affectation into your posts for a vapid racist
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Liberalism is not opposed to government intervention. Iran is heavily based on private property. That’s like saying the US isn’t liberal because of the millitary industrial complex.
You’re confusing liberalism, the ideology, with vague ideas of personal freedom.
Most of the privatization of Iran has been going extremely slowly and the economy is still heavily controlled by the central authority. They on paper suggested things 15-20 years ago that they have been slow to adopt.