• UnfortunateShort@lemmy.world
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    5 months ago

    I love how people are complaining about Wayland not being ready or being unstable (whatever that even means, because it’s a protocol), while it’s the default on both GNOME and Plasma now, which combined probably run on more than 50% of Linux desktops these days.

    And not only that, but Cinnamon, Xfce and others want to follow, so very clearly people who know a fair bit about desktops seem to disagree with Wayland being “not ready”.

    • Matty_r@programming.dev
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      5 months ago

      When people say its not ready, it’s normally some specific use case that worked in X11. So, they’re not wrong, but not right either.

      • zurohki@aussie.zone
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        5 months ago

        The devs have been working hard to hammer out those troublesome edge cases. There’s a lot less of them than there was a year or two ago.

    • Toribor@corndog.social
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      5 months ago

      Wayland was subject to “first mover disadvantage” for a long time. Why be the first to switch and have to solve all the problems? Instead be last and everyone else will do the hard work for you.

      But without big players moving to it those issues never get fixed. And users rightly should not be forced to migrate to a broken system that isn’t ready. People just want a system that works right?

      Eventually someone had to decide it was ‘good enough’ and try an industry wide push to move away from a hybrid approach that wastes developer time and confuses users.

    • njordomir@lemmy.world
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      5 months ago

      The change was 95% unnoticed for me. I looked at the session one day and thought “oh yeah, I have been using Wayland”. I don’t mess with many games or AI GPU stuff though, so it may be that more complex use cases result in a worse experience.

    • linearchaos@lemmy.world
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      5 months ago

      Wayland is ready, ‘nobody’ else is ready to use Wayland. And by nobody, I mean any software packages that are doing anything at all out of the ordinary. Text expanders are a hot mess, remote control apps or dodgy, OBS screen capture is dodgy. We’re still playing catch up, support for Wayland in applications is honestly quite lacking.

    • utopiah@lemmy.ml
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      5 months ago

      Ironically enough just 2 days ago I posted this https://lemmy.ml/post/20691536/13906950 namely how the 1st thing I do after installing NVIDIA drivers on Debian is disabling Wayland to rely on X11 simply because it doesn’t work.

      Sadly that’s relevant here precisely because if we are talking about Valve it’s about gaming, if it’s about gaming one simply can’t ignore the state of NVIDIA drivers.

      So… it might run on 50% on Linux desktops but on mine, which I also game on, it never worked once I had drivers for gaming installed. Consequently I understand “how people are complaining” because that’s exactly my experience.

      • tekato@lemmy.world
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        5 months ago

        That’s NVIDIA’s fault for refusing to adopt the agreed upon methods for rendering graphics on Linux. They tried to force EGLStreams on everybody for almost a decade while knowing GBM was better.

          • tekato@lemmy.world
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            5 months ago

            Yeah. Unfortunately most consumers buy NVIDIA, even though they only care about the enterprise sector.

        • Aristoxene@feddit.nl
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          5 months ago

          Same here and with an Optimus configuration ( NVIDIA + Intel GPU ). Work flawlessly on my Fedora.

          • Drew@sopuli.xyz
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            5 months ago

            Just base endeavour OS with nvidia drivers, maybe they would have information on it

      • UnfortunateShort@lemmy.world
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        5 months ago

        That I can understand, however I want to piont out that this is an Nvidia problem entirely. Wayland works perfectly fine under 2/3 hardware vendors.

        Luckily, they finally open-sourced their shit so going forward, this will probably change. But chances are only from the 2000 series on, so it might take an upgrade for many folks…

      • boomzilla@programming.dev
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        5 months ago

        I just yesterday tried Wayland under Arch with a 1070 after a long time. Single WQHD monitor though. Although X11 is really performant, Wayland was more smooth regarding KDE desktop effects. Witcher 3 (via Heroic) showed fewer microstutters and I will try some more proton games and other applications over the weekend.

        I recently had to downgrade nvidia drivers from 560 to 550 because wakeup from sleep and hibernate would coredump. I read that this is fixed with 560 but only under Wayland. The developers definitely progressed on the nvidia front.

    • offspec@lemmy.world
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      5 months ago

      I daily drive Wayland and I just have to ask, why is the clipboard and associated tooling so much worse‽ I just want input leap and neovim to both be able to properly read from and write to my clipboard. Input leap never can, and neovim has like a 50% shot at doing what I expect. Also I understand we’re moving away from x11 in general but why is there no replacement for x11 forwarding over ssh?? I know I’m a niche user, but it drives me crazy.

      • pixelscript@lemm.ee
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        5 months ago

        why is there no replacement for x11 forwarding over ssh??

        There kind of is. The project you’re looking for is waypipe.

        Knowing how these things tend to go, I predict you’ll try to use it for your use case and it just won’t work for whatever stupid reason. But I successfully used it to tunnel an app from my Debian machine at home to a Windows machine under WSL.

    • picnic@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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      5 months ago

      Okay, is there a vnc server for wayland which can be autostarted and runs as a service? I havent found one and been looking for one for ages.

      • UnfortunateShort@lemmy.world
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        5 months ago

        All I know is that there are VNC and RDP solutions for Plasma and VNC solutions for Wayland in general.

        You can autostart anything on any distro by putting the command in a startup script.

    • PlexSheep@infosec.pub
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      5 months ago

      It’s just that there are lots of stuff that don’t really work (out of the box) with Wayland systems, an example being getting an IME with ibus/fcitx5 to work in browsers.

    • fxdave@lemmy.ml
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      5 months ago

      I think it kills the community. Making a Wayland window manager is so much harder to do than an X one. This monolithic solution solves the problems of Gnome, and KDE developers but less people want to be involved in windowing systems. I’m just being sad for X11, because, although it had nonsense features, it made linux desktop applications compatible with every desktop and we had huge variety of wms, compositors, desktop environments. Personally I’m still on X because of bspwm, but eventually there will be wayland-only features which will slowly kill X.

        • fxdave@lemmy.ml
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          5 months ago

          well, yes, but for e.g. I wrote a software piece that happened to be only a hotkey daemon. And I could write it with X. Now, hotkey daemons are no longer a separate thing unless the compositor exposes a grab API. Which never going to be in Wayland protocol, because they consider this client server architecture a problem.

      • fxdave@lemmy.ml
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        5 months ago

        Now instead of having Wayland covering everything, applications try to cover every desktops. In the good old times, it worked everywhere.

        Why does flameshot need to handle different wayland desktops separately? Because simply the protocol doesn’t do it’s job. It doesn’t cover everything. It’s indeed not ready.

      • rottingleaf@lemmy.world
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        5 months ago

        I think this is intentional. Call me paranoid.

        Elaboration: we have seen in the past how RedHat’s and others’ policies would always not reach some part of Linux users, and those users still wouldn’t feel as second class citizens - it was just a matter of choice and configuration to avoid PulseAudio, systemd, Gnome 3, one can go on. That was mostly connected to escaping major environments and same applications working the same with all of them. Wayland, while not outright making Gnome the only thing to work, creates a barrier and doesn’t make that a firm given anymore.

        It won’t be too long until using Linux without Wayland will cut you off from many things developed with corporate input - and that’s developers’ time paid as opposed to donated for or volunteered, so much more effort.

        Now, there was a time when there weren’t that much corporate input and still things would get done. But it will be hard to fall back to it, when the whole environment, one can say, ecosystem, is so complex and corporate-dependent.

        I would say this is the time of all those corps whose investment into Linux was so nice in 00s and 10s reaping what they sowed. This wasn’t all for free or to profit on paid support. And people who thought that it’s GPL that was such a nice license that “forced” corps to participate in FOSS projects they benefit from, with those projects remaining FOSS, are going to have to face reality.

        Fat years are ending, so they are going to capitalize on their investments.

        This has already happened with the Web 10 or more years ago, when Facebook, Google and others have suddenly gone Hitler, while now they are in terminal stages of enshittification.

        Same process.

        You can disagree, no need to insult me.

  • toastal@lemmy.ml
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    5 months ago

    Just please get us proper color management. Creators need accuracy & HDR is still a mess.

      • Buddahriffic@lemmy.world
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        5 months ago

        Wait does that mean I can only have up to 4 billion games on my client before the game list overflows and I start losing games at the end of the list?

    • WorseDoughnut 🍩@lemdro.id
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      5 months ago

      SteamLink not allowing me to stream just my desktop (rather than a specific game) on Wayland is really the only thing keeping me on X11 at the moment. I use that feature almost nightly to keep watching something from my PC while I cook dinner

  • Metz@lemmy.world
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    5 months ago

    I love wayland. I’m 100% on it since the KDE 6.0 Beta end of 2023. Back then i wanted to try the HDR of my new monitor. I can’t remember the last time I had a problem of any kind or thought “That worked under X”.

    Multi-Monitor setup with different resolutions and refresh-rates. wayland does not care. it just works. And this is to a big part a gaming machine btw.

    • Senseless@feddit.org
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      5 months ago

      I made a gradual switch from windows to Arch starting in may. At first I had some issues but since nvidia 555.x drivers launched everything just works. Gsync/VRR? No issues. HDR? No issues. Three monitors, some rotated, with different refresh rates one of them ultra wide? No issues at all. It’s amazing.

      Made the full switch about 1,5 months back and deleted all windows partitions two weeks ago. Works for gaming, work and casual browsing without flaw and I’m glad I made the switch.

    • Tlaloc_Temporal@lemmy.ca
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      5 months ago

      My very first experience with Linux last year was switching from X to Wayland to get my touchpad to work properly. The only thing I’ve noticed that doesn’t work on Wayland is that mouse following cat.

      • JustAnotherKay@lemmy.world
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        5 months ago

        […] mouse following cat

        I think I saw something recently about the cursor getting some tweaks in Wayland, I think KDE was working on it? Not sure if it’ll help this kind of stuff but they’re trying to standardize the cursor a bit better

        • Tlaloc_Temporal@lemmy.ca
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          5 months ago

          Yeah the pointer is handled differently so the old packages don’t work, and I couldn’t find an updated package possibly because no one has bothered to write one yet. It’s perfectly understandable and not an issue whatsoever.

          Trackpads are handled much better though.

          • tekato@lemmy.world
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            5 months ago

            There’s no protocol yet that allows apps to observe inputs. They just started working on it so it may be a while.

    • Akatsuki Levi@lemmy.world
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      5 months ago

      I haven’t switched to Wayland yet cuz I’m stuck with a GT 710, which only supports the 470 series driver, which… Doesn’t really run Wayland. Hopefully some day, I’ll get my hands on a Radeon GPU and then fully migrate to Wayland, cuz my laptop already rocks it with Sway and, no complains at all

      (I know about it having EGLStreams support which only GNOME uses, but it has no GBM support, which… well, all other compositors uses)

    • aStonedSanta@lemm.ee
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      I see everyone say this about scaling but I still have tons of issues with it in Wayland. If I scale my 4K 150% to be the same as my 1440p ultra wide monitor in screen height so I can drag across without any borders. It for some reason sets my in game resolution to 5k x 2k instead of 1440p like it should be. Also if the screens go to sleep the windows sizing are all worst of wrong and fucked when awoken. In general just strange and not there yet imo

      Edit. Steam doesn’t get scaled either.

      • tekato@lemmy.world
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        5 months ago

        Steam is not Wayland compatible. The games you are playing are most likely not Wayland compatible. This is not a Wayland issue.

      • olympicyes@lemmy.world
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        5 months ago

        This was my exact issue. I had a 5k2k screen and a 1440p and it choked. Electron apps (eg VS Code) were blurry.

      • Metz@lemmy.world
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        5 months ago

        mtp as in media transfer protocol? i fail to see what this has to do with the display server. and what do you mean with web transparency? never heard that term and google does not give any infos. If you mean something like network transparency, wayland can do that with e.g. waypipe (https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/mstoeckl/waypipe). but not tested myself tbh.

          • Metz@lemmy.world
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            5 months ago

            mtp has nothing to do with the display server. X11 has no mtp function either. its completely independent from that.

            and i can only talk about KDE, but it has a own solution integrated which then mounts android folder in its file explorer (dolphin) while unfortunately blocking mtp over CLI at the same time. you get an “likely in use by GVFS or KDE MTP device handling already” error then.

            It is possible of course that this is a thing that happens only under KDE wayland, but not because it is wayland itself but because the wayland version of KDE is maybe newer or was configured differntly by the devs.

            that said, if it does not work as expected, report it as bug. usually things are fixed very quickly.

          • Markaos@lemmy.one
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            5 months ago

            OK, I use GNOME on Wayland on EndeavourOS and have no problems regularly running a script in my phone’s internal storage root directory. Go file a bug report to your distro, or at least provide some details.

      • lemmyvore@feddit.nl
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        5 months ago

        Or try using any form of desktop automation… which is a show-stopper and it doesn’t look like Wayland plans to do anything about it any time soon.

        • Metz@lemmy.world
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          5 months ago

          I don’t see how this is a Wayland problem. X11 has no desktop automation integrated either. You had to use third party tools for that like Autokey. And admittedly, there is still no comparable replacement for Wayland as far i know (maybe KDE scripts? https://develop.kde.org/docs/plasma/kwin/api/ or https://github.com/ReimuNotMoe/ydotool ?). But that is because nobody has fully build one yet, not because some inherent absence of necessary wayland functions.

          • lemmyvore@feddit.nl
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            5 months ago

            It actually is because of Wayland design. In their quest for “security” they’ve made it impossible for automation and accesibility tools to do their job.

            It’s a glaring omission in Wayland going forward, for zero gain. Most of the touted Wayland security advantages are hogwash.

            • thedeadwalking4242@lemmy.world
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              5 months ago

              I mean if it’s goal was to prevent scripts from using the graphics env maliciously then it seems to have made some progress if you can’t even automate it with good intentions

              • lemmyvore@feddit.nl
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                5 months ago

                We need to keep a balance between security and convenience, to avoid systems becoming too awkward to use. Wayland tipped this balance too far on the side of security. Malicious local exploitation of the graphics stack has never been a big issue; consider the fact that someone or something would need to compromise your own account locally, at which point they could do much worse things than moving your windows around. It’s not that the security threat doesn’t exist, it’s that Wayland has approached it at the wrong end and killed a lot of useful functionality in the process.

                Also consider that this issue has existed for the entire history of desktop graphics on *nix and nobody has ever deemed it worth to destroy automation for it. If it were such a grave security hole surely someone would have raised the alarm and fixed it during all this time.

                My opinion is that Wayland has been using this as a red herring, to bolster its value proposition.

                • winterayars@sh.itjust.works
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                  5 months ago

                  Technically i think the worst they could do would be to record your screen. (Barring some extra fancy exploits or something.)

        • tetris11@lemmy.ml
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          Yup, or even a simple notify-send. Trying to work out which environment variables are needed to get the damn thing to focus on the window in question which may or may not be an X11 window within Wayland. The magic formula I’ve learned so far:

          DBUS_SESSION_BUS_ADDRESS="unix:path=/run/user/$(id -i)/bus" \
          XDG_RUNTIME_DIR=/run/user/$(id -u) \ 
          XAUTH=$(ps aux | grep "/usr/bin/Xwayland :0 -auth" \
                 | grep -v grep | sed -r 's|.*-auth ([^ ]*).*$|\1|') \
          DISPLAY=:0 \
          XAUTHORITY=$XAUTH  <finally your command here>
          

          (oh and sometimes you might need to preface that all with a sudo, oh and there’s no guarantee that the Display is at :0, even if no other display is in use). Eaaazyyy peaaaazyyy

          I will say that wtype is the one wayland automation tool that does not need any preamble. It just works out of the box, genuinely good engineering by the developers on that project.

    • lemmus@szmer.info
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      5 months ago

      Yo, try it on nvidia…or try some older programs, try playing games. Wayland is already good, but if it keeps being developed at this speed, then its 10 or more years left for this things to work yet.

      • Metz@lemmy.world
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        5 months ago

        I play games all the time. Actually that is what i do the most lately. Either via Lutris or Steam. Sometime with Gamescope (for HDR) or just normal. I had not even one single problem. Including older programs, emulators, etc.

        And yeah, this is a full AMD system, so quite possible that this makes the difference. But as far i read, nVidia gets better constantly too.

        • zurohki@aussie.zone
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          5 months ago

          IIRC Nvidia needs explicit sync support to work reliably. It’s fairly new and might not have landed in some distros, especially the stable releases.

        • lemmus@szmer.info
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          5 months ago

          Its just because xwayland is doing its job, but many games and programs don’t work even on it, you just need to switch to X11 manually, this is annoying me. I don’t know why people downvote, maybe because they don’t have nvidia and don’t know how it works there. I have nvidia and use linux 2 years already, I can confidently say from my experience, X11 is more laggy but more stable, you need special kernel for wayland to work just better on nvidia, and still it is not as good as just using x11.

          • prole@lemmy.blahaj.zone
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            Yeah and xwayland is working just fine for me right now. It’ll be nice when it’s no longer needed, but in the meantime, it has caused no noticable performance issues for me.

            but many games and programs don’t work even on it, you just need to switch to X11 manually, this is annoying me.

            This has never once happened to me. I have never had to switch my session to x11 for any reason whatsoever, especially not for compatibility issues. Been over a year now.

            Dunno what distro or hardware you’re running, but I suspect Wayland is not the issue.

          • tekato@lemmy.world
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            5 months ago

            That is NVIDIA’s fault. They wanted everyone to use the inferior EGLStreams while knowing GBM is better. Everyone ignored them and moved on, so NVIDIA sucks on Wayland. They did change their mind recently so maybe you’ll get support at some point in the future. Unfortunately there’s nothing to do from the Wayland side to fix this, except for adopting EGLStreams which nobody will do.

    • utopiah@lemmy.ml
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      5 months ago

      No “if”, no “would”, we are millions of gamers using our (portable) PC with SteamOS running on it for few years now already.

      As others have pointed out already, the SteamDeck is exactly that. I even travel with it, use desktop mode with my BT mouse&keyboard with a USB-to-HDMI adapter and work on large screen and do my presentations with video projectors.

      If they were to sell a desktop too… well I have a Corsair ONE already, naming a gaming desktop (2080Ti) with a very small footprint and relatively silent. It is not easily upgradable due to how compact it is (but can be done) so if I were to have an equivalent of it from Steam and they were to keep on contributing to FLOSS it would probably be an even easier buy because I trust their RMA and I imagine I wouldn’t pay a “Windows tax” with it as it would “only” come with SteamOS.

      TL;DR: I’d prepare my credit card.

      • abbenm@lemmy.ml
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        I had an alienware Steam Machine and it was perfectly fine.

        I think the criticisms of the Steam Machine suffered from what I would call the Verge Syndrome, which is only being able to comprehend things in a binary of instant success or failure, with no in between and no comprehension of other definitions of success.

        Steam Machines were a low risk initiative that were fine for what the were. They did not have a ring of death, they didn’t have a blue screen, the OS itself was not glitchy, they didn’t lose money, and they didn’t fail any stated goals. They got the Proton ecosystem up and running, and got the ball rolling on hardware partnerships, which led to the smash success of the Steam Deck which would not have been otherwise possible.

        • menemen@lemmy.ml
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          5 months ago

          I am sure they were fine machines. I don’t think they were profitable for Valve (that is what I meant with “not worked out well”). On the other hand, the Steamdeck might not exist without the Steam Machines, so maybe I am wrong and it did work out well.

      • vividspecter@lemm.ee
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        5 months ago

        And the software ecosystem, much of which they have funded/developed. In 2015, there was no proton, no DXVK, no vkd3d, and most important, no Vulkan.

    • rottingleaf@lemmy.world
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      5 months ago

      Cheap ARM Linux laptops with all the gamez, GPIO, RJ-45, interfaces and space for 2-3 SSDs plz. And battery that holds 4 days (without gamez). And a choice between amoled and e-ink display options.

      Having typed that, I suppose I won’t live to see that. Still, something like RPi or OPi, but with 2 M.2 interfaces, would be sufficient to assemble a convenient enough laptop. EDIT: and upgradeable memory

    • sin_free_for_00_days@sopuli.xyz
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      5 months ago

      I can’t remember the last time I bought a PC. I just incrementally upgrade over the years. I would be disappointed if they came out with a PC that only ran with their flavor though.

  • Kawawete@reddeet.com
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    5 months ago

    Accelerating wayland développement would mean forking it. As it is right now there’s a lot of yapping in their git for every decision, small or big.