seriously! like how do you become addicted to coffee, I drink it regularly but I can’t say I am caffeine addict or something. how one become a caffeine addict?
seriously! like how do you become addicted to coffee, I drink it regularly but I can’t say I am caffeine addict or something. how one become a caffeine addict?
You’re clearly very passionate about this issue, but you’re arguing semantics and you are, at least from my reading of the DSM-V, not even correct.
You are against describing caffeine usage as an “addiction” because you claim it is not listed in the DSM-V as such, and yet the DSM-V clearly states that it doesn’t define “addiction” because it’s such an overused term.
From page 485 of a version of the DSM-V I was able to find online.
Also you claim “caffeine isn’t in the list of compounds forming addictions” in the DSM-V, and putting aside the fact that the DSM doesn’t use the term “addictions” as a diagnostic tool, the page you reference has caffeine right there near the top of the table with several serious diagnoses, although granted not substance abuse diagnoses. We shouldn’t discount a substance because one row of that table is unchecked. If it shows up, it’s there for a reason.
From page 482 of a version of the DSM-V I was able to find online.
Caffeine is associated, according to the above table from the DSM-V, with anxiety disorders, sleep disorders, substance intoxication, and substance withdrawal. You give an anecdote of how you handle the withdrawal symptoms even, yet somehow suggest that, despite having a special ceremony with dealing with a substance including taking medication, it is not a big deal just because it doesn’t have the same symptoms as nicotine withdrawal. You also hand-wave the complex biochemical reactions that make caffeine work saying a cold shower is equivalent, when it’s strictly not - a cold shower does not block any chemoreceptors unless your shower has some really wacky features mine doesn’t - and you can’t bring the DSM-V into a discussion unless you plan to talk clinically and consider the chemical pathways of the substance under scrutiny.
All that aside, you’ve correctly edited your original comment to state that you can’t get a substance abuse disorder from caffeine, and you misspoke when you said “addicted”.
So I don’t see why you’re still arguing with people here, nobody used the phrase “substance abuse”, they used “addiction” which is a colloquial term for excessive use of something. There’s no point to this discussion when, if you’re using the DSM-V, you should be in complete agreement with everyone.
Just let it go. According to the DSM-V, it is completely fair to call caffeine addictive in general discussion, and caffeine has real and serious effects on a persons biochemistry that you can’t just brush off because they aren’t as bad as meth.
I’m not just arguing semantics.
Addiction is shorthand for ‘Substance Use Disorder’. Having a headache if you stop drinking coffee is not why people attend [Addict] Anonymous meetings. Someone does not go to their doctor and says “I have a substance abuse disorder”. The line of introduction a speaker uses at those meetings is not “hi, my name is Cepho and I have a substance abuse disorder”.
I edited not to correct my usage of ‘addict’, but to correct others usage of the word specifically because it is overused and to correct the overusage the you yourself admit too and STILL ya’ll insist ‘no, I am addicted’.
No, you are not. You like coffee and if you stop drinking it you’ll have a headache for a day or two. Big woop. You won’t be seeing a professional that refers to the DSM-V for it. Several of the pharmaceuticals those professionals would use to treat actual disorders create side-effects when use is discontinued. ‘Most’ are not addictive to the point patients commonly stop taking them willingly despite being forewarned of the side-effects of stopping (no, I’m not referring to a return of disorder’ symptoms either). So having a withdrawal syndrome is not addiction. Figureidout
See, you’re doing it all again. The severity of one does not discount the severity of another. And “addiction” is not DSM-V defined.
Rarely does anyone go to their doctor and say “I have melanoma” either, they simply tell the doctor they have a weird mole. Part of the conversation with a professional is using common phrases and nomenclature to start the dialog and work towards a proper diagnosis. I’m sure if you told a psychiatrist “I’m addicted to caffeine” they would almost certainly understand what you mean.
I’m afraid I can’t really tell you what they say in those meetings. They are often highly religious processes and have debatable results, so I won’t be taking my clinical terminology from them.
The DSM-V admits to it, as well as the negative connotations of the word. If anything, people with substance use disorders should be inclined to avoid that word in order to prevent the negative connotations. If anything, you are actually doing them a disservice by telling us we should be calling them “addicts” when the DSM-V explicitly states that it is not a proper definition and that it has a negative bias against it.
Not for the headache, no, but for the several other diagnoses that can arise from usage of caffeine. Stop trivializing the issue, please. Caffeine is in the DSM for a reason - it is a drug with chemical and psychological effects.
But that’s your main sticking point, it seems. Your main issue appears to be that people shouldn’t call caffeine consumption an “addiction” - it is entirely semantics. It’s not a medical term, as we’ve said, so we may as well be arguing “gif” vs “jif” right now. It’s just nomenclature, it does not change the underlying issue of caffeine usage.
You are also arguing that caffeine is no big deal, which just seems like an oddly obtuse and head-in-the-sand take. Just because caffeine does not cause you to sell your kidney for a fix does not mean it has zero deleterious effects. Usage results in real consequences for people, even if they are relatively minor in comparison to harder substances. Having a two day headache from a beverage should not be normalized, in my opinion.
Never said it wasn’t. Addiction isn’t one of them though.
I agree with that at least, but you again ignore the salient point: withdrawal syndrome is not addiction. SUD replaced Addiction disorders from previous versions for your aforementioned reasons, but, anyone diagnosed with an Addiction disorder in previous versions wasn’t just suddenly cured. The definition was replaced with SUD, not considered gone and as such Caffeine addiction wasn’t in previous versions either.
As for all the other conditions listed for caffeine in the DSM. It is for diagnostic purposes: Can’t sleep? Are you anxious? Do these symptoms occur shortly after you drink coffee? Stop. Oh, and be sure to drink lots of water and pop a couple Paracetemol if you get a headache. Appointment over.
You are the one arguing semantic BS to avoid the salient points:
Okay, so why bring up the DSM if you don’t care what it says? You seem to be missing my point.
Caffeine is addicting in the colloquial sense that you want it when you don’t have it. It is not a cause of substance abuse disorder.
I never said I did and, in fact, I don’t think it’s okay. I’m an outlier in that fact and that’s my concern and the reason I’m even in this thread.
By definition in the DSM, neither caffeine nor meth are addicting. So this is a nil point
Again, addiction means nothing here except a colloquialism. It is no longer a medical term. If you have a source for a strict definition in a scientific sense beyond the DSM I’d be happy to adjust our conversation accordingly
You cannot use an outdated version just because it fits your argument better. The nomenclature was changed, so adapt
By calling them “addicts” you are immediately not respecting them, per the negative connotation and the superior alternative term which we’ve discussed
And sidelining a conversation about a drug to argue semantics is better? Nobody in this thread will tell you caffeine is as bad as nicotine.
My interpretation here is that you suffer from substance abuse, in the past or currently, and you feel your experience is being trivialized. If that’s the case then say that instead. Don’t argue about definitions out of the DSM, just state cleanly and kindly that you feel that “habit” is a better term and let the conversation about the topic continue. Don’t be so aggressive and self-righteous about it and people will be more inclined to listen and change.
And if you don’t suffer from substance abuse then don’t get outraged by pedantics on someone else’s behalf…
Already said I’ve quit smoking so i know firsthand the difference.
Appealing to “addiction” as a colloquialism doesn’t help your case. The post title expresses concern about getting addicted and that won’t happen because you can’t. Show me proof that caffeine is defined by the scientific community as addictive. Good luck
I’ve said this three times now, but: There is no scientific definition of addiction, so you would have equal trouble finding meth described as addicting.
The post title concerns the common usage of the term, this is not a medical forum. A guy just had a question. You’re the one who, incorrectly, brought up addiction as a medical term
Nah, you’re not going to make this ‘well many people think caffeine is addicting, so it is true’. Society as a whole defers to the experts and they say caffeine isn’t addicting. When the term ‘addict’ was used by scientists it didn’t apply to caffeine which is why you can’t find supporting evidence. Society also says they don’t want to expose children to addicting substances yet allows them to consume coffee and tea without issues, so even your idea of ‘muh colloquialism’ is wrong. Being among a select few who believe this delusion does not make you right. It makes you naive. Wilfully so at this point or you are sealioning.
Either way my point is made for people actually concerned about actually getting addicted, by all reasonable definitions of the word, to caffeine. Namely: don’t be.
I don’t know how to word this any differently, so I think this conversation is just about done.
You keep bringing up how science says caffeine isn’t “addicting” despite you yourself being the one to point out the DSM-V where they explicitly call the word out as not defined in the DSM-V. So for the fourth time: “addicting” is not a scientific term.
Just because it was preciously referenced in a 24+ year old version does not make it still scientifically relevant. It is not a scientific term any longer, and you can stop treating it like it is.
Meanwhile, in the DSM-V, caffeine is associated with withdrawal symptoms. Symptoms you yourself have described and experienced. So we can both agree caffeine use causes withdrawal.
So because (1) “addiction” is not a medical term and (2) caffeine causes withdrawal symptoms when usage is stopped it is therefore more than fair for people to define it as addicting in a nonscientific context like the one we’re in. We should reference science, sure, but science has no opinion on whether caffeine is “addicting” because, again, it’s not a scientific word.
Again, you’re arguing semantics. This is arguing “gif” vs “jif” at this point. You’ve given up on medical sources like the DSM because they don’t support you so now you are just doubling down with no basis in fact.
Hopefully, we see each other around on the Fediverse and maybe even have another discussion, but one that is more beneficial for us. This one seems to be just spinning our wheels. Good luck to you