It’s an inherent problem of the human condition, for some reason our own moral compass becomes dysfunctional once the authority and therefore responsibility is with someone else. It’s the reason the Stanford Prison Experiment went so wrong once the professor took influence; we’re not inherently evil, we (as a species) are just drawn to the current ruleset as dictated by our social group or idol of choice, especially if we get convinced it’s somehow necessary.
Obviously not trying to abolish any guilt here, people are still responsible for what they’re doing.
In the end we need way higher quality of education globally, better social security, rethink society (don’t have children be on their own and make parents constantly burned out, god damn it) as well as political systems so they are designed to prevent any definition of an in- and out-group. Protections for who, what, where and how people are are great, and stuff like Germany’s Article 1 is a good start, but it needs to go way further.
We need to design an environment that allows us humans to become more than we currently are if we ever want to get out of this cycle.
Why mention that aborted, flawed experiment that’s difficult to replicate when experiments have been concluded & replicated with consistent results?
Pop culture buzz?
Meta-analyses of the Milgram experiments found that despite expressing discomfort or needing reassurance or hearing the screams of “shock recipients”, 61% of subjects would yield to an authority’s commands to administer shocks they understand are lethal.
All participants would administer shocks until the recipient becomes unresponsive.
Subjects who refused to administer fatal shocks wouldn’t insist on terminating the experiment or leave to check on the victim.
It seems pretty clear from findings like this that people are probably ill-equipped & overconfident about their ability to defy authority & most will perform atrocities they disagree with (ie, “just follow orders”).
Unless they’ve been tested themselves, I think people need to drop the presumption that they wouldn’t do what science has consistently demonstrated people when tried do.
This, by the way, all supports what you’re saying.
It confirms claims Zimbardo pushed participants towards the results he wanted, something he has disputed.
That’s actually what I referred to, although I indeed didn’t know know about the other statements by participants. Only knew about someone in Stanford digging through the files and realizing Zimbardo fucked everything up by pushing towards a certain outcome. Mmh…
I still stand with my statements about what we should do better though.
I’m with you on that. Most people all to thankfully give up their responsibility and do what they are told. The less they see the outcome of their actions the better (drone Pilots for example).
Anyway, i think the stanford prision experiment is a bad example for that though, because it also incorprates peer pressure and concludes that nobody will think twice doing harm to others, as long as they are told to do so by authority. Humanity isn’t that bad I hope
Then explain human history and literally everything else we know. It is only denial, optimistic bias, self delusion, and other mediating psychological effects that allow us to see ourselves as anything better.
Then explain human history and literally everything else we know
For what? This would change nothing. The only thing you can change are your own actions at this very moment.
It is only denial, optimistic bias, self delusion, and other mediating psychological effects that allow us to see ourselves as anything better
“Everyone is an asshole, so it’s okay for me to be an asshole too”?!
You do you! I strongly believe most people don’t enjoy seeing other people suffering. I’m no saint either but I try my best. I think that’s a way better starting point than your take.
For what? This would change nothing. The only thing you can change are your own actions at this very moment.
I thought we were talking about societal concepts? Those would literally change everything given it’s about the shape of our very environment, it’s okay if you don’t want to engage in such a discussion though.
Sorry mate, english is not my first language. I just wrote a response anyway but lemmy bugged when i tried to post it. :(
I think everyone can act like a monster if he thinks the other person deserves it. unfortunately all the negativity in the media and from influential people enforces this worldview.
I try to abstain from and to not discuss shit like that. Life is too short to be angry about things i can’t change. What i can do is act as good as i can in my personal life and that’s about it.
Have a nice day and don’t let the negativity get the best of you
It’s an inherent problem of the human condition, for some reason our own moral compass becomes dysfunctional once the authority and therefore responsibility is with someone else. It’s the reason the Stanford Prison Experiment went so wrong once the professor took influence; we’re not inherently evil, we (as a species) are just drawn to the current ruleset as dictated by our social group or idol of choice, especially if we get convinced it’s somehow necessary.
Obviously not trying to abolish any guilt here, people are still responsible for what they’re doing.
In the end we need way higher quality of education globally, better social security, rethink society (don’t have children be on their own and make parents constantly burned out, god damn it) as well as political systems so they are designed to prevent any definition of an in- and out-group. Protections for who, what, where and how people are are great, and stuff like Germany’s Article 1 is a good start, but it needs to go way further.
We need to design an environment that allows us humans to become more than we currently are if we ever want to get out of this cycle.
Why mention that aborted, flawed experiment that’s difficult to replicate when experiments have been concluded & replicated with consistent results? Pop culture buzz?
Meta-analyses of the Milgram experiments found that despite expressing discomfort or needing reassurance or hearing the screams of “shock recipients”, 61% of subjects would yield to an authority’s commands to administer shocks they understand are lethal. All participants would administer shocks until the recipient becomes unresponsive. Subjects who refused to administer fatal shocks wouldn’t insist on terminating the experiment or leave to check on the victim.
It seems pretty clear from findings like this that people are probably ill-equipped & overconfident about their ability to defy authority & most will perform atrocities they disagree with (ie, “just follow orders”). Unless they’ve been tested themselves, I think people need to drop the presumption that they wouldn’t do what science has consistently demonstrated people when tried do. This, by the way, all supports what you’re saying.
Not to burst your bubble but
was a total hoax:
https://www.nine.com.au/entertainment/viral/stanford-prison-experiment-faked-say-people-involved/4a1833c2-ff70-4813-8727-7458d4652b8e
That’s actually what I referred to, although I indeed didn’t know know about the other statements by participants. Only knew about someone in Stanford digging through the files and realizing Zimbardo fucked everything up by pushing towards a certain outcome. Mmh…
I still stand with my statements about what we should do better though.
I’m with you on that. Most people all to thankfully give up their responsibility and do what they are told. The less they see the outcome of their actions the better (drone Pilots for example).
Anyway, i think the stanford prision experiment is a bad example for that though, because it also incorprates peer pressure and concludes that nobody will think twice doing harm to others, as long as they are told to do so by authority. Humanity isn’t that bad I hope
Then explain human history and literally everything else we know. It is only denial, optimistic bias, self delusion, and other mediating psychological effects that allow us to see ourselves as anything better.
For what? This would change nothing. The only thing you can change are your own actions at this very moment.
“Everyone is an asshole, so it’s okay for me to be an asshole too”?!
You do you! I strongly believe most people don’t enjoy seeing other people suffering. I’m no saint either but I try my best. I think that’s a way better starting point than your take.
I thought we were talking about societal concepts? Those would literally change everything given it’s about the shape of our very environment, it’s okay if you don’t want to engage in such a discussion though.
Sorry mate, english is not my first language. I just wrote a response anyway but lemmy bugged when i tried to post it. :(
I think everyone can act like a monster if he thinks the other person deserves it. unfortunately all the negativity in the media and from influential people enforces this worldview.
I try to abstain from and to not discuss shit like that. Life is too short to be angry about things i can’t change. What i can do is act as good as i can in my personal life and that’s about it.
Have a nice day and don’t let the negativity get the best of you