Summary
Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy asserted that no world leader has the right to negotiate with Russian President Vladimir Putin on behalf of Ukraine.
Speaking to Le Parisien readers, Zelenskyy emphasized that Ukraine alone determines its future and any dialogue with Russia must follow a peace plan based on strength and international support.
He warned against negotiating without clear guarantees of security, highlighting the risks of Putin resuming aggression after a ceasefire.
Zelenskyy called for a strategy ensuring Ukraine’s long-term stability and security, beyond NATO or EU membership timelines.
The comments are peak internet dumpster fire 🍿
I am so sad by how Ukraine has been handled.
The West should have been an overwhelming power against Russian imperialism. Ukraine should have been given everything from the beginning, no strings attached, with no self-imposed red lines.
They will swallow another democracy in 10-20 years and the cycle repeats.
Yep. It was a sad excuse not to intervene in 2014, but now? Pathetic.
And that would likely have ended the war sooner, causing less people to die, and making Putin less likely to try something like it in the future.
Tactically, the plan is to make Russia bleed to death rather than temporarily paralyse it.
Maximizing the loss of russian life and draining the russian economy to the point that the population won’t tolerate any further war is the goal. It’s unfortunate that this is at the cost of ongoing war in Ukraine.
This is a solid take, but the other side of the issue is the question of how long will it take the brainwashed Russian population to realize the economy has passed a point of no return? Outside of major cities much of Russia lives in 3rd world poverty. Will they even notice if the ruble falls to zero?
Some might not notice a change in the economy, but they will notice that their sons are being taken and that they are not coming back.
Approximately 1 in 1000 Russian males have now been killed. How many more will have to die for the average Russian to say “no more” is a tough question.
That statistic sounds off. 1 in 100?
I used a population of 143,000,000 divided by an estimated death toll in Ukraine of 70,000 and assumed half of the russian population is female.
1 in 100 might be correct if you only consider men of a fighting age.
Holy shit, I haven’t looked at the numbers in a while, but
- Russian population: 140 000 000
- Male population: 70 000 000
- Male fighting age population (18 - 60 years): Very approximately 50 000 000 (I honestly just made up a number a bit smaller than 70)
- Documented KIA: 85 000
- Projected actual KIA: 170 000 (Note: Prigozin claimed 120 000 KIA in June 2023)
- Projected number of severely wounded: Roughly 500 000
Result:
- Roughly 0.34 % fighting age men killed
- Roughly 1 % of fighting age men severely wounded
This has to be getting close to a point where most Russians know someone personally that has been killed or severely wounded in the war…
I heard a while ago that a very well connected person (the sort of person that doesn’t need to work and could spend all their free time maintaining family relations and friendships) would really only be able to maintain family relations and friendships with about two hundred people. The sort of people that say “I have 1000 friends on Facebook” are talking complete bollocks, there’s a huge difference between a relationship/friendship and an acquaintance that you haven’t talked to for fifteen years. The average person truly knows many less people than this, usually in the low dozens.
Using your figures and assuming that these relationships are 50/50 male/female, even these very well connected people would statistically still know less than one injured soldier and have less than a 1/3 chance of personally knowing someone that was killed.
I know this comment assumes and extrapolates quite a bit and the idea is somewhat of a tangent from the original comment, but I think it’s quite interesting.
Turns out neither the west or russia gives a shit about Ukraine.
Please be more concrete. Who is the west? Because in Denmark we throw resources at Ukraine to support their efforts.
Do you throw danish people?
they’ll give a shit once all other options have been exhausted, and people realize the next step is actual shooting war, with the bombs falling on Warsaw, Helsinki, Berlin, etc. When they realize they’re on their last legs before the big one, then they’ll take it seriously.
America is a write off, Regulatory captured by the Russian Federation / Russian Mob, Same thing At the very least until 2026 midterms. Europe is still in denial that its time to switch from butter, to guns. Literally
nothing for the US to steal.
There is a lot in Ukraine to “steal”. It’s a large land mass with a long border with both Belarussia and Russia. They still have plenty of Black Sea border, and with proper support could have lot more. Breadbasket of Europe, plenty of nuclear plants and knowledge in that area. The Zone. Ukrainian people, one of the oldest cultures in Europe with all that that entails.
I don’t think they have the oil reserved the US wants to steal
They have uranium though, which could be more important in the future. Even if Russia gets all the land they currently control by military, plenty of those uranium deposits would remain with Ukraine.
everything keeps pointing to time being a circle, the same things will continue to happen every 20-30 years. like the show Dark.
Maybe no civilian targets. But other than that totally agree. We should have put lend lease circa 1940s to shame
Or not helping Boris Yeltsin against Gorbachev.
Or maybe the US should have stopped Catherine the great from annexing Crimea. Jesus you people.
Oh, right, I didn’t remember I wasn’t allowed to set the time frame. Only you have that power, right? 🤦♂️
Edit: and it was YOU the one talking about 1940s.
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Ah yes “muh Russian Imperialism” argument/excuse that we all heard a bajillion times
Fuckwit
Your IQ is sub-zero, thanks for admitting that
Whatevs
What exactly do you describe Russia’s actions in Ukraine then if not imperialism? Do you believe Ukrainians have a right to self determination?
They lost the right when they Allowed a coup govt to take control & bow down to US interests & harbour Nazis
This is a gross and uneducated understanding of the issues that led to the revolution.
Russia you mean of course.
& USA (mostly)
And russia entirely
Russian imperialism is as real as any other. What makes russia different? What do you think is the reason for the war?
Resources mostly & technically what makes US a better alternative, I was expecting you to side with Both US & Putin due to your love for fascism
What do you call conquering neighboring countries to get more resources?
Depends
Depends on what?
People
due to your love for fascism
lmfao. okay bro, you know literally nothing about me, but apparently i’m already a fascist.
and resources doesn’t make a country any less/more genocidal, or imperialist.
and fuck the US, fuck putin. unlike you, i’m not a hypocrite.
Except Putin with all his craziness has done significantly less carnage compared to US & Israel (That’s Putin’s only redeeming quality) Reminder not justifying Russia’s actions but hey you people usually ignore that
Two things can be bad at once. Eastern Imperialists are still Imperialists.
And how does this justify the invasion? Russia is in the wrong. I’m not sure who or what you’re arguing for here.
Try placing Russian Nukes in Brazil
Putin has repeatedly mentioned in public interviews that he wants to restore the Russian Empire. Do you think he’s lying?
Suuuuuure & you think people who support putin are Putin simps who totally don’t want to simply not have US hegdemony
Remove america from the equation and Russians would still want a sphere of influence and colonies. Imperialism is married to the russian identity
Except America is the epitome of Imperialism (& by extension Europe)
Two wrongs don’t make a right. Whataboutisms are bad and you should feel bad
Yes
Ah yes, “
insert'Muh'MemeLanguageHere” argument/excuse that we all heard a bajillion times
It’s fucking ridiculous he has to say it out loud
Tbh a lot of people in the states are under the impression that we CAN do precisely that, because we absolutely have done in the past. But this is also kind of a whole different ballgame, in a ton of pretty crucial ways.
No world leader = hey, you orange turd, you do NOT speak on our behalf.
But stated politically.
this is why our teachers taught us the difference between can and may (one implies ability, the other permission) because all of south america is looking at this like “fucking right dude”
As an American, I have always found our conduct in South America in particular to be utterly reprehensible.
Central too. Dole & United Fruit, Panama Canal, School of the Americas, just to mention a few lasting atrocities
As an American, I have always found our condict
in South America in particularto be utterly reprehensible.
Thus the ridiculous nature of the statement
Not only that, but we’re giving fucking BILLIONS of money to Ukraine, we SHOULD have a say so in what happens…
No we’re literally not. We’re giving them our stocks of older equipment that has been in warehouses. That equipment is assigned a dollar value and then it’s argued over as if were stacks of cash.
Yes we’re giving them money too, but when a headline says Biden authorizes $20 billion in additional aid to Ukraine, the vast majority of it is our old stuff.
you are just funneling BILLIONS into your Military Industrial Complex, which is good for the shareholder value of the usual suspects, while dropping off your used stuff all over Europe. The US are mainly helping themselves. It just happens to also help Ukraine.
It is, but that’s what Trump did with Afghanistan.
Of course no one can negotiate on behalf of Ukraine. Ukraine is holding on thanks to the support of several parties, and those parties do have the right to continue or end that support depending on the conditions they see. I hope this never happens, but If the US says they’re okay with letting Russia keep the territory its gained as long as hostilities end, then they are within their rights to withhold further arms aid on those conditions. Is that the US negotiating as if they are themselves Ukraine? No. Zelensky understands that he is existentially dependent on others. He’s just reminding them not to abuse that.
Yet, he expects the US to just keep cutting those checks, right?
You probably even think it’s one of those overisized checks that are often shown in your TV shows, don’t you.
This is arguably the whole point of the war.
For Ukraine yes, but as far as Ukraine’s allies go? Only in principle. In reality we help Ukraine because it fucks up Russia, but we don’t give Ukraine the support it really needs or asks for because of [insert litany of excuses for years of delay on new weapons systems].
Proxy wars are nasty business, and Ukraine has precious little say in any of the macro decisions. Russia and Russia’s ennemies collectively hold all the negociation leverage.
Zelenskyy’s only hope is that domestic pressure will force the West to make a genuine effort at preserving as much of Ukraine’s sovereignty as possible, hence this media intervention.And he’s right to be worried, because the situation in Palestine shows, again, that most Western governments only stick to their stated principles when it’s politically convenient and shrug at literal genocide when it’s not. And the Russian propaganda machine is going to work overtime to make us think that any Russian concession to Ukraine would be against European interests.
I think it’s worse than that. I think the building red tape was intentional to drag out the war as long as possible so Russia as always will continue to dump resources into it until it bankrupts them both militarily and economically.
And what is the western propaganda machine going to say?
With the extreme right taking over Europe? Whatever Russia says I suppose
Unfortunately, Trump will do exactly that regardless.
Probably already has.
Given the Russian pushes since Trump won the election, I’m guessing the deal is “stop fighting (for a bit), but any land you’re currently on is yours to keep”.
This obviously will not apply to the bits of Russia currently under Ukrainian control.
Europe needs to up it’s munitions manufacture. Can’t rely on the US for that shit any more. They’ve gone mad.
Maybe we can broker a deal where Russia gets to keep the invaded land, but Ukraine becomes a full NATO member.
That should fuck up putins imperialist plans to revive the ussr.
Yep the Trump deal is currently no NATO and full handover of the two provinces plus anything Russia holds. It is absolutely ridiculous.
YES, please stop relying on us, it’s become a very sore spot for a lot of people.
The problem is that the EU does this submissive bit because we also support the petrodollar. You’re buying the EU economy and markets with those weapons.
Imagine if we gave all of that back and aligned with China instead. It would instantly reduce the US to a regional power - fighting with runaway inflation - economically speaking. Not that I think that would be good for the EU either.
The status of the US as a superpower is founded on its alliances.
The US has a more powerful military than the next 9 countries of the top 10 combined. Based on war power expenditure. We shouldn’t neglect the soft power aspect, but the hard power will keep it a superpower barring collapse of society, which is totally possible.
And what do you pay that military with? Most of that expenditure is wages.
Having a huge and advanced military and getting your economy off a cliff can go one of two ways. Either Germany 1939 or Russia 1991.
There are very intelligent people at the department of defense. I often disagree with their decisions, but they know how the game is played. If the economy goes off a cliff, I guarantee you soldiers will still be paid.
I mean a lot of US folks seem way more smug than actually upset about it. Bringing it up to derail the conversation whenever anyone mentions US imperialism or the one-sidedness of NATO policy, as if the US would ever accept, let alone desire a position as equal among equals.
Just IMO (and a lot of other peoples) military spending is completely out of control and a small fraction of it could pay for healthcare and education for everyone. But I agree the ruling class and associated MIC lobbyists aren’t going to let that happen any time soon, as nice as it would be.
It could pay for those things but it won’t, even if they stopped funding the military. It would be kept by the billionaire class.
Oh absolutely. Gotta keep the plebs desperate and divided, while billions upon billions disappear into the most toxic and destructive industry there is right alongside fossil fuel corporations.
They managed to keep military spending at an unprecedented level after the fall of the Soviet Union and the end of the cold war, in an amazing feat of governmental capture and exploitation by arms industry lobbyists. But it wasn’t enough, because it never is. Line must go up. The US has been seeking new reasons to funnel even more money their way ever since.
Yeah if you make society nice and easy to live in then people stop joining the military.
America can tell Russia Ukraine formally surrenders, and that the moon is made of cheese, it isnt going to stop anyone from fighting to protect themselves.
The fact that even western countries seem to think that there can be negotiations about the fate of Ukraine and its people, without the Ukrainian voice present, is laughable and directley supports Putin and the Russian Mafia’s fantasy-narrative.
If America and NATO pull back support, Putin will just say “fuck it” and take all of Ukraine and then do whatever he wants. Putin wants every territory that used to be Russia.
even if Nato tucks its tails between its legs and runs away from a winnable confrontation, Russia isn’t taking the whole country, they don’t have the manpower to run an occupation on a territory the size of Texas, with one of the most heavily armed and battle hardened populations on earth.
Russia already signed away any hope of an occupation that didn’t fight them tooth and nail to the death, when they decided to massacre the villages of Bucha , Irpin, and Konotop. The world saw Russia for what it was then, That event “steeled” the resistance. I’m not trying to use hyperbole or sensationalism here, I’m stating that flat out, the Ukrainian people saw that the Russians will murder every single person who doesn’t submit, and they’ve only continued that savage barbarism ever since. Bombing and Murdering people into submission NEVER works. It only gives them a reason to fight.
they weren’t equipped to do an occupation in 2022. they sure as shit are less equipped to do so now. It would be one of the bloodiest insurgencies in history. The Taliban didn’t have Leopards, Javelins, and HIMARs rockets they could put into hiding.
They have no intention of occupation. They will raze every city to the ground to control the pipes and food. They just want the pipes and food, and people who don’t allow that are just going to be ground up like so much meat.
Leaving who to grow the food and service the pipes?
Yeah, I don’t think that person realises that regardless of how cold and impersonal the resources are, you still need people to get the resources, and those people need to live, and that requires infrastructure, and that requires an occupation, that requires a functioning society.
If they go scorched earth, they get exactly that - scorched earth.
Honestly though I think the goal is not really resources but, as all fascists require, to have a perpetual enemy and a war to fight. Without that the fascists’ obsession with a plot turns inwards and they eat themselves.
Spot on.
they dont have the resources for that, either.
Putin wants every territory that used to be Russia.
And then when he gets them all, he will want every territory that’s near Russia.
And people will be like “Oh no, why didn’t anyone DO something when we could?”
While I do agree that this is all kind of bullshit and contributes to that issue of supporting Putin and the Russian mafia fantasy, the reality is that the entire Ukrainian war effort is propped up by the resources provided from western countries, which means that they do in fact the ability to continue or end the war pretty unilaterally. We can chest pound all we want, as can Zelenskyy, but he knows this. This war cannot continue without armaments from the US and Western Europe
Western europe has no choice now, they have to arm up and possibly prepare for war with Russia, or resign, and accept Russian Dominion.
The US will do as it wills, they’re going to backslide into fighting with themselves, and evidently with Canada and Mexico at this current rate. Europe will have to take the torch, if for no other reason than that they have no choice. Russia and NATO have been de-facto at war with each other for a while.
I’ve even said that WW3 started years ago but people generally dont agree because they only associate the term WW3, with nuclear exchanges.
theres’ no turning back from this state though. the last chance we had at an “offramp” was in september 6 to 21 of 2022. at that point, the russian army had suffered a major defeat and been pushed out of over half the territory they had conquered. That was Putin and Kremlin’s opportunity to back off before this spiraled totally beyond control, instead, that door was slammed shut forever on the 21st when Russia announced a mobilization.
Now, its not going to stop until either Ukraine signs over part of its territory in exchange for NATO protection, Or the fight goes on until a government collapses. (either way just means more war, east or west) No ceasefire outside of of that deal I mentioned, will actually last, or truthfully stop the hostilities. Russian treaties are just an alternate spelling of Toilet paper
I don’t disagree with any of this, all I’m saying is that Ukraine only has a war so long as its friends are giving them the means with which to wage war.
I completely agree the US would be foolish to stop helping them. We should be ramping it up. Russia is a rogue state, it should be treated like one, with the relatively modest investment we put into it we have seen Russia take crippling blows that will take them easily decades to recover from. This is an opportunity to contain a major world threat and it is not lost on me that Trump and co are determined to squander the opportunity.
Trump, Orban, LePen, Fico, they’re all comlicit in the gang of mafia stooges that are different flavors of the same Mobster Kleptocrat Authoritarian that Putin is the ringmaster of.
probably already has an
instructionagreement to cease all supportand by proxy, the majority voters who support him.
Dude is actually benefitting from this war.
You’d think this would be a fairly cut and dry issue - the countries helping Ukraine wouldn’t like it either if another country started negotiating terms on their behalf (especially not with a monster like Putin).
Ukraine and its people should be the ones to decide their own fate.
I swear people who think otherwise must’ve read David vs. Goliath and sided with the Goliath.
must’ve read David vs. Goliath and sided with the Goliath.
Bold of you to assume that they can read, or that they have read the Bible.
In my experience not even “devout Christians” do that last one.
easiest way to become an atheist is to read scripture.
100%. Reading the Bible cover to cover + learning about the history of how Judaism was born out of the polytheistic Yahwism and the resulting merge between Yahweh and the chief Canaanite god El was the way I just kept pulling the thread until it all came apart. The inconsistencies between an omnibenevolent god (El) and violent massacring war god (Yahweh) make a lot more sense once you know they used to be two separate gods.
Alright, that didn’t work. What’s next?
I dunno, if you believe in a global flood and the tower of babel I’m not sure I can help
Honestly I’m not qualified enough to make educated guesses what type of texts those are. As in, are they written in a form that insinuates to be literal stories. The teachings of those stories are pretty understandable, though.
Some say that the oldest stories are reverse prophecies. And we know how accurate prophecies are considered in general.
The Bible is not a science book, but one of relationship between God and man.
It’s interesting that that relationship changes, isn’t it? Like, early on God is the sort of deity to turn you into salt or flood the world if He’s displeased. And over time, He does that sort of spiteful intervention less and less. It’s hard not to see it as Him getting wiser and more compassionate. But… if He’s all powerful and all knowing to begin with, why does His approach to people change?
It’s not only interesting, it’s difficult to understand, and Old Testament contains a lot of stuff that makes you doubt. But if you look at it from a theological view, God’s judgement does not disappear anywhere in New Testament. It’s just diverted into one person: his own son, who he abandons to be crucified, even though he is innocent.
Christianity is really a horrifying religion. The core of it is disgusting and offensive.
But it doesn’t end there.
It has different messages if you hold it upside down.
Hey Goliath was clearly in the right. David brought a gun to a fist fight, bastard never should have been allowed to walk free after that level of cheating.
Unfortunately their ability to decide their own fate is limited while they are reliant on resources from countries that are threatening to pull the plug.
Yet we still give Israel bombs 🫥
Israel gets all the munitions it wants to enact a genocide, but Ukraine has to fight for every bullet to fight for its own sovereignty against a modern day dictator. The US government’s priorities really are something.
Truth
What about the country sending the most aid to Ukraine, without which Ukraine could not continue the war, being the one at the negotiating table?
Would the US like it if another country tried to push it to the side and negotiate on its behalf on literally any issue, not even war-related?
Do you think the US would accept the outcome of such negotiations willingly?
I suspect it wouldn’t, so expecting another country to do so is pure hypocrisy.
Ukraine can 100% continue fighting their invaders without the US. Also, Europe supplies more aid to Ukraine than the US.
https://www.euronews.com/2023/07/28/how-much-has-the-eu-given-to-ukraine-compared-to-the-us
Then why is Ukraine constantly upset US isn’t giving enough aid?
Also, Europe supplies more aid to Ukraine than the US.
You might not realize this, but you’re comparing a continent to a country. US is still “the country sending the most aid to Ukraine,” which I said in my previous comment.
Because the US could do a whole lot more?
Yeah, but according to the other commenter Ukraine “doesn’t need it” and he doesn’t want Ukraine to be reliant on the US.
So… they both do and don’t need aid from the US? Lol.
It’s not that hard. They don’t need aid to continue to fight, but they do need aid to be able to win.
I see what you’re trying to say and I agree but this isn’t the right echo chamber to be talking like that.
No, that country can fuck off back across the ocean, thanks.
And take their aid along with them?
What if this means Ukraine is no longer able to defend itself?
Then they can fuck off across the ocean with their aid. Ukraine isn’t the US’s puppet.
Alright well, I guess it can be Russia’s puppet then.
to paraphrase an old Polish quote, (on dealing with Russians) “The Rubble is preferable to Russian Dominion”
Maybe it’s just me, but life in Ukraine didn’t look all that different from life in Russia before the invasion.
Both nations are far behind the civilized world when it comes to social issues. Corruption was cited as a major reason for denying Ukraine entrance into NATO.
Uh huh, it would be less a russian puppet than the US negotiating another countries’ fate.
Except that they can’t, especially Europe. While EU has drastically reduced oil and gas from Russia it’s still like 20%. I’ve heard Hungary and Austria don’t have access to gas from other countries other than Russia. (If someone has a source that says otherwise I’d be open to it).
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The only thing that’s worse than having the US as your enemy, is having the US as your ally.
Speak for yourself. A majority of Eastern Europeans see the US as a key strategic ally, and for good reason.
The original quote is: “It may be dangerous to be America’s enemy, but to be America’s friend is fatal.” – Henry Kissinger
Oh fuck off with that.
They sure LOVED having the US as an ally when they were getting their asses handed to them during WW1 and WW2.
ThE OnLy tHiNg tHaT’S WoRsE ThAn hAvInG ThE Us aS YoUr eNeMy, Is hAvInG ThE Us aS YoUr aLlY.
UwU
What is he trying to achieve with such declarations ? This won’t go well with Donald Trump.
Hungary attempted to negotiate a christmas ceasefire between Russia and Ukraine. The ceasefire would end up wasting Ukraine’s last chance to win the war with Biden’s support. After Christmas, Trump becomes president and cuts support to Ukraine. Hungary’s ceasefire would have resulted in Ukraine losing their best chance and many dead civilians. Zelenskyy is here explaining his decision to reject the ceasefire without pointing fingers at anyone in particular.
Thanks for this explanation
Trump would have to stop fellating Putin to do something about it.
Bro really just out there like “yo gimme 100 billion dollars to save my country but don’t you dare think you get to speak for me” SMH
You realize we’re helping Ukraine because it’s in our own best interest right?
People are acting like we do it out of our good hearted nature.
Also, we don’t get to speak for Ukraine just because we’re helping them. I’m tempted to say obviously but apparently it’s not that obvious.
What the US has a right to do is stop it’s support.
I have no doubts about that, the US has historically been pretty darn good about protecting their own interests.
The real question is whether it’s also in the Ukraine’s best interest.
Do you recall what happened the last time we tried appeasement for a fascist, right?
He marched right over Europe, and kicked off the holocaust…
A few years ago, didn’t the British prime minister threaten to cut Ukraine out of economic relations if Zelenskyy negotiated with Russia? Kinda seams like that’s already happened.
Yet, all other countries are supposed to send unlimited amounts of money and weapons? This is the same bullshit with everyone else… you want all our money, and that’s it.
If all other countries don’t send help, it just puts Putin one step closer to their borders.
While what Zelenskyy says is absolutely true, no county is obligated to help. Is this a good strategy to lend into?
Yes, because it sends a clear message that retractions of aid will not cause them to negotiate, and thus removes a domestic political incentive to do so.
