It’s such a terminating clause. Like we don’t need to actually understand at a deeper level why guy born a Mexican, still is Mexican but is voting for Trump because… They’re racist against Mexicans???
I’m so done with the left. It’s so tiring. They even adapt their messages. I can go back 15 years and still see the exact comments of “they’re racist” while right wing dominate spaces seem to come up with new things every 6 months. Soy cuck Wojack probably conjures up a whole era all our minds right? What about “man they’re racist” what does that conjure up?
The left should lose the right to call anyone low information voters until they sort themselves the fuck out
I think you’re confused, liberals aren’t left. The commenter you are replying to is complaining about liberals, ie “moderate” right wingers, failing to understand far-right wingers.
Liberalism is the start of the left unless you are incredibly eurocentric. Most of the world is still arguing liberalism vs authoritarianism and Europe is adopting that once again.
Liberalism was “the left” in the 1700s and has desperately tried to maintain that label ever since, all while doing anything it can to preserve the status quo with violence.
“Authoritarianism” isn’t an ideology, nor does it have a corresponding mode of production. That isn’t the argument. The increased despotism in Europe is a consequence of capitalism’s decay, it’s a very liberal despotism.
Liberalism is not the start of the left. Liberalism is the status quo in capitalist society, it’s the ideological component of capitalism. The start of leftism is socialism, the start of rightism is capitalism.
No “authoritarianism” is a end point on the binary that should used rather than capitalism vs anticapitalism it reflects the actual debates going on in non-Western nations
You whole position is eurocentric because it accepts capitalism and liberalism as a default state.
First of all, ideologies are not recipes, nor choices made by people, but a product of material conditions and reality. There isn’t a debate between “authoritarianism” and “liberalism,” there’s a decaying liberal capitalist system and different classes pushing for their own interests.
Secondly, it isn’t a Eurocentric view. The majority of the world is liberal. Countries like China and Cuba that have managed to move into socialism are not the majority. What’s left and right isn’t determined by the median opinion, but between moving onto the next mode of production or trying to retain the current system (or even move backwards).
There is no “authoritarian vs liberalism” debate, they aren’t even antithetical to each other. It isn’t a spectrum. Most liberal countries are despotic.
That’s a very marxist perspective. There very much is a debate going on all across the planet as to how much freedom from government and religion that people should have. If you bother to educate yourself on the politics of Muslim dominant nations you will see they are having those discussions right now.
To be clear Cowbee, you are talking theory and I am asking you to pull your head out of your books and look at the world around you.
People can talk all they want, but “debate” matters very little in terms of actual systems of political economy. Iran is fairly liberal and nationalist right now, as an example. I despise your insinuation that I simply only read theory and don’t pay attention to the world around me, while you draw false binaries and trap yourself into an idealist worldview.
Again, discussion matters far less than what the actual system is, and furthermore leftism in, say, Iran would be socialist. You have a very liberal view of liberalism, humorously enough.
If you despise my assertion that you only read theory you should not make claims like “Iran is fairly liberal now”. The Iranian government has a very heavy hand in that economy and economic freedoms don’t exist like they do in capitalust economies.
Try looking into African nations that are liberal in name only and literally any Muslim dominant nation that permits religion to have a direct role in the government if you want to see societies that are debating what degree of liberalism is acceptable.
That entirely depends on whether we accept liberalism as a default which most nations do not. Most of the world is still arguing authoritarianism vs liberalism right now.
Liberals -> want the means of production to remain privatized aka capitalism
Leftists -> want the means of production to be publicly owned aka socialism
That presumes the binary is focused on economy when most nations are still debating freedom from the government and thus liberalism should be the start of the left.
No, it fucking has not. It is quite literally the definition of where “the left” begins. In the wake of the French revolution the liberals sat on the left side of parliament.
Classical liberalism is an iteration of liberalism. It is not liberalism. There are also Democratic liberalism and social liberalism among many others. Almost all lean left of center with classic liberalism being more center
Even socialliberalism is still for capitalism, meaning it is right wing ideology. Not to mention every single time any declared socialliberal gets elected it turns out they are just ordinary neoliberal austerity ghoul.
Yea but neoliberals are not left. The fuck do you think US democrats are classic liberals? Also classic liberals are still capitalist supporting fuckwits, so the distinction is irrelevant when discussing the modern left.
Right and there is more than classic liberalism. As I said. The majority of the others are left of center with classic liberalism being the outlier. Of which, Democrats still are right of classic liberalism
I just wish that people here would take time to explain why liberals are not left instead of just attacking you.
Liberalism is not left because by definition they are socially progressive but economically conservative.
I used to think the liberals are “left” because of the Americam mainstream media (by intentionally muddying political terms) interchange liberal between left. But thanks to Philosophy Tube’s beginner’s video explaining what it means, now I know better.
They are taking a frankly eurocentric perspective which presumes the debate is anticapitalism vs capitalism when I would posit that most nations are still debating liberalism vs authoritarianism hence the claim that they are eurocentric as the binary only makes sense for Europe.
I agree which is what I was waiting for someone to say. Just want to let you know I appreciate you from saying it. Until then I was just having fun here 😆
Liberalism is the ideology of capitalism. They emerged together and the former was formed to justify the latter. Over the years it has branched out and there are many forms such as classical liberalism, neoliberalism, social liberalism, etc. but they all defend capitalist property rights and the market. Socialism emerged as the working class response to/critique of liberalism. In the US the term only refers to social liberals, who are in reality centrists. Americans call them leftists only because centrists are slightly to the left of right-wing politics.
We’re against liberalism as a whole because it’s the ideology that justifies capitalism. We’re against social liberals because they’re seen as fence-sitting cowards and dangerous compromisers.
This is a very introductory overview to liberalism:
It should be the other way around that capitalism was created to justify liberalism because you have liberal philosophers writing decades to centuries before the capitalists.
Liberalism is a political and moral philosophy based on the rights of the individual, liberty, consent of the governed, political equality, the right to private property, and equality before the law.[1][2] Liberals espouse various and often mutually conflicting views depending on their understanding of these principles but generally support private property, market economies, individual rights (including civil rights and human rights), liberal democracy, secularism, rule of law, economic and political freedom, freedom of speech, freedom of the press, freedom of assembly, and freedom of religion.[3] Liberalism is frequently cited as the dominant ideology of modern history.[4][5]: 11
How many books on this topic have you read? Are you aware of the conflicts between liberals and workers, prisoners, women, and colonized people for over 200 years? Do you know the history of the working class movement and its history of conflicts with liberals since the mid 1800s?
Any one of us can answer these questions. You clearly can’t.
You read books but do you read current news? Most of the world is still debating if they should be free of the government which is a binary that very much places liberalism on the left.
Why are you holding such a Eurocentric perspective in face of the fact that most are not having the anticapitalist vs capitalist discussion you seem to think they are having?
This isn’t really relevant here. Social liberalism, democratic liberalism as categories are defined as left of center. A green group and another group labelling themselves socialist whatever isn’t changing what the definition is for sometime with different names
No, they aren’t. Liberalism is the ideological superstructure of capitalism, while leftists support socialism of various fashions. The driving distinction between right and left is retaining the current system, or progressing onwards to the next.
Liberal/Left-leaning people embrace social services and government intervention in the economy.
Conservative/Right-leaning people support lower taxes, free markets and less government intervention
in the economy.
Libertarians advocate both personal and economic liberty (freedom).
Authoritarians favour strict obedience to authority and government control, at the expense of personal
and economic freedom.
lmao what is it with people trying to map abstract political concepts onto geometric and spacial shapes?
The colloquial meaning of “liberal” used by some Americans does not align with how it’s used in political theory. That’s okay, words have different meaning in different contexts.
“Left” and “right” stem from the French Revolution (1789!) where the people who sat on the left of the National Assembly were progressives that supported the revolution and people who sat on the right were conservatives that wanted to preserve the old system. Liberalism (as defined in political theory, not colloquially) is the dominant global ideology and thus is no longer progressive or radical. It may have been progressive when monarchy was the main form of government, propping up feudalism as the main economic structure. But that’s obviously not how the world works 200+ years later
This is a very typically American point of view, which tends to lump a lot of people together as “liberal” despite this internationally not being the norm at all.
Here’s a definition of liberalism:
Liberalism is a political philosophy and ideology that emphasizes individual rights, liberties, and limited government. It promotes ideas like free markets, free trade, and social equality, while often advocating for a strong emphasis on individual autonomy and civil liberties.
Note specifically how it says individual rights. The idea with liberalism is that if everyone is similarly unrestrained by the government, and has the same civil liberties, there is an even playing field in which individuals can personally grow and excel. This neatly links together with the liberal belief in a free market, free trade, etc…
A strict liberal idealogy will also adopt several progressive policies w.r.t. civil liberties, like gay rights (as this causes social equality -> level playing field for competition). But liberalism is still a strictly capitalist idealogy, with a strong emphasis on the free market and free trade.
Generally, this individualistic approach to rights is considered socially progressive and economically right-wing. And we see that this is the case in most countries around the world, e.g. Australia’s liberal party or the Dutch VVD. The Dutch VVD is a good example to look at here, they are considered very firmly right-wing, but their party platform most closely matches to that of the DNC. In the US, the two major parties are both righg-wing, one is a moderately progressive right-wing party (with some left-wingers in there, but they aren’t very influential w.r.t. party policy because it’s such a small minority) and the other is a conservative/authoritarian right-wing party.
Because both parties sit firmly on the right of the spectrum, they’ve come to distinguish themselves on social policy rather than economic policy. They’ve remapped the progressive-conservative axis on the left-right axis and called it a day. But in most countries, these axes are very much distinct. Here’s the “political compass” for the Netherlands for example:
Note how there are only two fairly fringe parties to the right of the VVD. Also it’s interesting to note here that the PVV (the “far-right” party with the bird symbol near the bottom) isn’t even all that far right. Their economic policies aren’t actually all that focused on free market dynamics, and they do promote certain social policies. But their hardline immigration stance pushes them very firmly in the conservative camp. And although there’s certainly a correlation between left-progressive and right-conservative, there are still major differences between the parties along this diagonal axis.
Generally, actual left-wing people (be they progressive or conservative) don’t like being lumped in with liberals, because they don’t focus on as much on individual freedom but rather on collective freedom and on policies that benefit the collective. Hence their insistence on actually looking at the full political spectrum rather than the simplified/reducted version of it.
You’re not wrong that people in the US tend to call liberals “left-wing”, but it’s a very reductive, American perspective not shared by political scientists or the rest of the world.
Yes, liberals tend to define the entire scope of political economy to a narrow, capitalist viewpoint. That doesn’t make it correct. A huge range of viewpoints narrowly occupies the “radical” portion, while an absolute mountain of space comparatively is given to subdivisions of capitalism. It’s a deeply silly graph.
I think I get it. Right wing groups like koch Bros and heritage institutes push the left to fracture into very niche small subsets in order to isolate making it hard for those groups to organize and easier to kill them off. Much like how a cheetah separates a young calf from the herd. So what groups are you talking about for your “huge range of viewpoints”
Totally not silly at all to get hyper specific about political ideology. I’m a liberal right center neo cat Audi rhino born a capitalist but transitioned to a socialist somewhere around 1992 when political synergy was at its peak
Nah, it aint that deep. The left wants socialism, the right wants capitalism. There are differences in views among leftists and right-wingers, but the base is in if the principle aspect of the economy should be public, or private.
There was a brief moment the US democratic party went social democratic, from Roosevelt to Carter and these days there’s a small resurgance with Mamdani.
But Clinton, Obama, Biden, Harris and Cuomo are all at the very least centre-right wing.
Liberalism is the ideology of capitalism. They emerged together and the former was formed to justify the latter. Over the years it has branched out and there are many forms such as classical liberalism, neoliberalism, social liberalism, etc. but they all defend capitalist property rights and the market. Socialism emerged as the working class response to/critique of liberalism. In the US the term only refers to social liberals, who are in reality centrists. Americans call them leftists only because centrists are slightly to the left of right-wing politics.
We’re against liberalism as a whole because it’s the ideology that justifies capitalism. We’re against social liberals because they’re seen as fence-sitting cowards and dangerous compromisers.
Canada’s two main parties are both right-wing. They support capitalism, and the rule of capitalists over the economy and government. The canadian conservative party agrees with them in that.
Or look at Australia. Their two main parties are Labour vs the liberal party (both are pretty right wing, but in that country the liberals openly position themselves to the right of the other party).
Or take Japan. Their far right party is called the liberal democrats.
Yea I get it. Liberalism is left of center. There’s no denying it. A lot of you just moved far left to the point that you all think the center moved with you. It did not. The political spectrum is not centered on socialism/capitalist. The options are not support socialism or capitalism. That is very lazy way to categorize the political spectrum. There’s more to it.
The internet is kinda crazy. Confidently wrong children who can do nothing more than copy and paste from wikipedia are trying to down talk to people with a lifetime of study of political theory.
How can liberals be left when liberalism is the hegemonic ideology in the US. Both parties are liberal and both parties represent oligarch interests, the only difference between them is in how to manage the internal contradictions of the country.
It’s a failure of terms used in US politics. When we say “left” and “right” we pretty much exclusively are talking about their position in respect to one another as opposed to the actual policies the parties hold.
Republicans are much more “conservative” (right wing) than Democrats (liberals) are, so the Republicans are the right and the Democrats become the “left” as they aren’t as conservative and therefore they are “to the left” of Republicans.
If you were to look at global definitions as to what it means to be a left wing party, Democrats really don’t fit there.
No they’re not, I hate to break it to you but most conservatives are liberals. What you’re referring to is liberals picking up on social policies championed by the left.
Yes they are. A Liberal for most political subgroups in liberalism are left of center with the odd leaning center right. Liberalism values mostly are left of center values.
Ok so based on that you should realise that every political party follows liberal economics. Hell even most conservative parties in the west pretend to stand up for liberal rights.
They are racist though though. Non white people can still accept and prop up systemic white supremacy. Anyone who supports the US or NATO is doing this. I see it all the time among my family and friends who are not white. To leftists racism isn’t just prejudice based on race, its prejudice based on race + the power in society to enforce that as a system. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prejudice_plus_power
Even better to my point then that the right was more effective with using it. Something about the left is super passive which is weird because they’re so loud with what they’ll do one day if ever they had the opportunity to do something about the thing they’re really mad at for that day they’ll totally do it.
I mean the internet is the worst place to do politics so idc if the right used some meme I made up. Want to do politics go outside, it was campaigning and canvassing that won the election for Zohran, it’s also what got Die Linke 10% of the vote in Germany. Real politics happens in the real world. Yeah the right wing is loud online, but they’re fucking cowards in real life. Most of the leftists I know are doing shit in real life not posting. FYI I told the wojack joke in real life then somebody posted it on the web, same with shocked pikachu also a joke told in real life. You’d be suprised how much doing stuff in real life achieves.
Everything is online. Nobody knows you knocked on doors in the neighborhood while people were eating supper. After supper people are logging into their favorite social media and engaging with content. Content which right now is leaning heavily on the right and affecting generations. I’ll argue all day that everything you said is exactly what the left is fucked and totally losing everything for the foreseeable future.
Zohran I hope to God succeeds but he’s going to need so much support online and the left removed themselves from every platform, they have no connection, structure or voices to organize online, they have no tools to assist. They all hate AI. They think every platforms is racist except fully leftist ones.
TPUSA, Heritage foundation, Cato institute, Koch Bros fucking UFC and barstool sports are all going to really amplify and sabotage Zohran. They have so many ins with business and media, they’ll all self sandstone sabotage to make sure the numbers can be amplified ONLINE to as many people as possible. The left is so far behind the times, they have no ability to counter this very foreseeable future.
Lol ok mr very online guy. You know that those media organisations you mentioned are all funded by billionaires. People like me aren’t funded because we say stuff that is uncomfortable and I don’t give a shit about appeasing advertisers. The biggest difference you can make is in the real world, being there for your community volunteering tennant unions etc. Posting is the lowest effort and easiest thing you can do. Actual struggle happens in real life.
Then why the fuck do you people show up to protest??
How does it make any sense to you that people will drive miles to some street and stand around while police kick your heads in. You cannot argue protesting publicly is effective yet engagement and capture online is not. What is really fucking crazy is how a lot of the left are convinced a public protest is Mecca while online engagement (which every one is putting money into as you said) is crap.
Almost like the people who put money into the effective methods are convincing their opponent to do the ineffective thing while they convince them the effective methods that they’re all invested in is useless.
They’re funding what you are doing for free right now. It’s insane how thick minded so many of you are. Every comment or content you all make costs them money to counter. It’s a numbers game. It costs you nothing. Take every protester willing to show up in the streets and teach them how to create media.
The left is cooked. So much brain rot on the left. You’re all calling people who have beat you in every arena as low information. Yet they beat you all, everywhere. How’d that no Kings protest work out?
Online is where opinions are shaped and formed. It’s a force multiplier. I’m so done with the left. Have no idea what they’re doing. It’s like watching people click their fingers in a park all over again.
What are you referring to? Who is you people? I’m sorry people do know if you knocked on doors, just because you’re not doing it doesn’t mean that it doesn’t get results.
Holy fuck this is spot on.
I’m so tired of hearing “they’re so racist”
It’s such a terminating clause. Like we don’t need to actually understand at a deeper level why guy born a Mexican, still is Mexican but is voting for Trump because… They’re racist against Mexicans???
I’m so done with the left. It’s so tiring. They even adapt their messages. I can go back 15 years and still see the exact comments of “they’re racist” while right wing dominate spaces seem to come up with new things every 6 months. Soy cuck Wojack probably conjures up a whole era all our minds right? What about “man they’re racist” what does that conjure up?
The left should lose the right to call anyone low information voters until they sort themselves the fuck out
Libs arent generally considered left.
I think you’re confused, liberals aren’t left. The commenter you are replying to is complaining about liberals, ie “moderate” right wingers, failing to understand far-right wingers.
Liberalism is the start of the left unless you are incredibly eurocentric. Most of the world is still arguing liberalism vs authoritarianism and Europe is adopting that once again.
Liberalism was “the left” in the 1700s and has desperately tried to maintain that label ever since, all while doing anything it can to preserve the status quo with violence.
“Authoritarianism” isn’t an ideology, nor does it have a corresponding mode of production. That isn’t the argument. The increased despotism in Europe is a consequence of capitalism’s decay, it’s a very liberal despotism.
Liberalism is not the start of the left. Liberalism is the status quo in capitalist society, it’s the ideological component of capitalism. The start of leftism is socialism, the start of rightism is capitalism.
No “authoritarianism” is a end point on the binary that should used rather than capitalism vs anticapitalism it reflects the actual debates going on in non-Western nations
You whole position is eurocentric because it accepts capitalism and liberalism as a default state.
This is wrong.
First of all, ideologies are not recipes, nor choices made by people, but a product of material conditions and reality. There isn’t a debate between “authoritarianism” and “liberalism,” there’s a decaying liberal capitalist system and different classes pushing for their own interests.
Secondly, it isn’t a Eurocentric view. The majority of the world is liberal. Countries like China and Cuba that have managed to move into socialism are not the majority. What’s left and right isn’t determined by the median opinion, but between moving onto the next mode of production or trying to retain the current system (or even move backwards).
There is no “authoritarian vs liberalism” debate, they aren’t even antithetical to each other. It isn’t a spectrum. Most liberal countries are despotic.
That’s a very marxist perspective. There very much is a debate going on all across the planet as to how much freedom from government and religion that people should have. If you bother to educate yourself on the politics of Muslim dominant nations you will see they are having those discussions right now.
To be clear Cowbee, you are talking theory and I am asking you to pull your head out of your books and look at the world around you.
People can talk all they want, but “debate” matters very little in terms of actual systems of political economy. Iran is fairly liberal and nationalist right now, as an example. I despise your insinuation that I simply only read theory and don’t pay attention to the world around me, while you draw false binaries and trap yourself into an idealist worldview.
Again, discussion matters far less than what the actual system is, and furthermore leftism in, say, Iran would be socialist. You have a very liberal view of liberalism, humorously enough.
If you despise my assertion that you only read theory you should not make claims like “Iran is fairly liberal now”. The Iranian government has a very heavy hand in that economy and economic freedoms don’t exist like they do in capitalust economies.
Try looking into African nations that are liberal in name only and literally any Muslim dominant nation that permits religion to have a direct role in the government if you want to see societies that are debating what degree of liberalism is acceptable.
Liberals are left
big no. neoliberalism is a capitalist ideology. right wing.
Only if you are eurocentric and accept liberalism as a default state. I would argue eurocentric perspectives are inherently problematic.
Someone hearing for the first time that Ronald Reagan and Margaret Thatcher are staunch liberals.
That entirely depends on whether we accept liberalism as a default which most nations do not. Most of the world is still arguing authoritarianism vs liberalism right now.
Are you guys being serious right now? This is insane. Liberal values are left of center.
Which century are you from? 18th?
Liberals -> want the means of production to remain privatized aka capitalism
Leftists -> want the means of production to be publicly owned aka socialism
That presumes the binary is focused on economy when most nations are still debating freedom from the government and thus liberalism should be the start of the left.
Liberalism has always been a right-wing philosophy
No, it fucking has not. It is quite literally the definition of where “the left” begins. In the wake of the French revolution the liberals sat on the left side of parliament.
Lol the socialists stole the “left” from you
Classical liberalism is an iteration of liberalism. It is not liberalism. There are also Democratic liberalism and social liberalism among many others. Almost all lean left of center with classic liberalism being more center
Even socialliberalism is still for capitalism, meaning it is right wing ideology. Not to mention every single time any declared socialliberal gets elected it turns out they are just ordinary neoliberal austerity ghoul.
Yea but neoliberals are not left. The fuck do you think US democrats are classic liberals? Also classic liberals are still capitalist supporting fuckwits, so the distinction is irrelevant when discussing the modern left.
Right and there is more than classic liberalism. As I said. The majority of the others are left of center with classic liberalism being the outlier. Of which, Democrats still are right of classic liberalism
I just wish that people here would take time to explain why liberals are not left instead of just attacking you.
Liberalism is not left because by definition they are socially progressive but economically conservative.
I used to think the liberals are “left” because of the Americam mainstream media (by intentionally muddying political terms) interchange liberal between left. But thanks to Philosophy Tube’s beginner’s video explaining what it means, now I know better.
They are taking a frankly eurocentric perspective which presumes the debate is anticapitalism vs capitalism when I would posit that most nations are still debating liberalism vs authoritarianism hence the claim that they are eurocentric as the binary only makes sense for Europe.
I agree which is what I was waiting for someone to say. Just want to let you know I appreciate you from saying it. Until then I was just having fun here 😆
Liberalism is the ideology of capitalism. They emerged together and the former was formed to justify the latter. Over the years it has branched out and there are many forms such as classical liberalism, neoliberalism, social liberalism, etc. but they all defend capitalist property rights and the market. Socialism emerged as the working class response to/critique of liberalism. In the US the term only refers to social liberals, who are in reality centrists. Americans call them leftists only because centrists are slightly to the left of right-wing politics.
We’re against liberalism as a whole because it’s the ideology that justifies capitalism. We’re against social liberals because they’re seen as fence-sitting cowards and dangerous compromisers.
This is a very introductory overview to liberalism:
The most in-depth delving into it is Losurdo’s Liberalism - A counter history, but you’d have to read many more foundational texts before that one.
It should be the other way around that capitalism was created to justify liberalism because you have liberal philosophers writing decades to centuries before the capitalists.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberalism
Emerging together does not mean they are dependent on each other.
Wow that sounds sooo leftist. I think you’re about 150 years late in defining liberalism as “the left”
Can you show me where private property is categorically right leaning and not left
How many books on this topic have you read? Are you aware of the conflicts between liberals and workers, prisoners, women, and colonized people for over 200 years? Do you know the history of the working class movement and its history of conflicts with liberals since the mid 1800s?
Any one of us can answer these questions. You clearly can’t.
You read books but do you read current news? Most of the world is still debating if they should be free of the government which is a binary that very much places liberalism on the left.
Why are you holding such a Eurocentric perspective in face of the fact that most are not having the anticapitalist vs capitalist discussion you seem to think they are having?
😆
Do you even read bro
Yes I read. Like how I read that Wikipedia link and the other supporting links and references I’ve posted. All saying liberalism is left.
We just have a more nuanced understanding of politics than you do.
No, you are using a different binary and I would argue you are using the incorrect binary as most are not dividing over support for capitalism.
Yea but you’re all not authority on any of this. So it doesn’t matter. The rest of the world knows liberalism as left of center. Just facts
we just had a coalition of liberals, "social"democrats and greens here in Germany. Believe me no one thinks that liberals are left of center.
This isn’t really relevant here. Social liberalism, democratic liberalism as categories are defined as left of center. A green group and another group labelling themselves socialist whatever isn’t changing what the definition is for sometime with different names
You are factually incorrect.
Definitely am not. I have plenty of supporting links. You all have … Comments
You’re arguing with people on lemmy.ml.
I got nothing better going on.
Just good to keep in mind you’re arguing with communists about idelogy.
Wow. Helping someone for free. Terrible at being a lib.
😆 I appreciate that. Thank you
No, they aren’t. Liberalism is the ideological superstructure of capitalism, while leftists support socialism of various fashions. The driving distinction between right and left is retaining the current system, or progressing onwards to the next.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/social-sciences/left-liberals
https://civix.ca/resources/wp-content/uploads/2018/05/Backgrounder-Lesson-2-The-Political-Spectrum.pdf
https://www.dictionary.com/e/leftright/
lmao what is it with people trying to map abstract political concepts onto geometric and spacial shapes?
The colloquial meaning of “liberal” used by some Americans does not align with how it’s used in political theory. That’s okay, words have different meaning in different contexts.
“Left” and “right” stem from the French Revolution (1789!) where the people who sat on the left of the National Assembly were progressives that supported the revolution and people who sat on the right were conservatives that wanted to preserve the old system. Liberalism (as defined in political theory, not colloquially) is the dominant global ideology and thus is no longer progressive or radical. It may have been progressive when monarchy was the main form of government, propping up feudalism as the main economic structure. But that’s obviously not how the world works 200+ years later
This is a very typically American point of view, which tends to lump a lot of people together as “liberal” despite this internationally not being the norm at all.
Here’s a definition of liberalism:
Note specifically how it says individual rights. The idea with liberalism is that if everyone is similarly unrestrained by the government, and has the same civil liberties, there is an even playing field in which individuals can personally grow and excel. This neatly links together with the liberal belief in a free market, free trade, etc…
A strict liberal idealogy will also adopt several progressive policies w.r.t. civil liberties, like gay rights (as this causes social equality -> level playing field for competition). But liberalism is still a strictly capitalist idealogy, with a strong emphasis on the free market and free trade.
Generally, this individualistic approach to rights is considered socially progressive and economically right-wing. And we see that this is the case in most countries around the world, e.g. Australia’s liberal party or the Dutch VVD. The Dutch VVD is a good example to look at here, they are considered very firmly right-wing, but their party platform most closely matches to that of the DNC. In the US, the two major parties are both righg-wing, one is a moderately progressive right-wing party (with some left-wingers in there, but they aren’t very influential w.r.t. party policy because it’s such a small minority) and the other is a conservative/authoritarian right-wing party.
Because both parties sit firmly on the right of the spectrum, they’ve come to distinguish themselves on social policy rather than economic policy. They’ve remapped the progressive-conservative axis on the left-right axis and called it a day. But in most countries, these axes are very much distinct. Here’s the “political compass” for the Netherlands for example:
Note how there are only two fairly fringe parties to the right of the VVD. Also it’s interesting to note here that the PVV (the “far-right” party with the bird symbol near the bottom) isn’t even all that far right. Their economic policies aren’t actually all that focused on free market dynamics, and they do promote certain social policies. But their hardline immigration stance pushes them very firmly in the conservative camp. And although there’s certainly a correlation between left-progressive and right-conservative, there are still major differences between the parties along this diagonal axis.
Generally, actual left-wing people (be they progressive or conservative) don’t like being lumped in with liberals, because they don’t focus on as much on individual freedom but rather on collective freedom and on policies that benefit the collective. Hence their insistence on actually looking at the full political spectrum rather than the simplified/reducted version of it.
You’re not wrong that people in the US tend to call liberals “left-wing”, but it’s a very reductive, American perspective not shared by political scientists or the rest of the world.
Yes, liberals tend to define the entire scope of political economy to a narrow, capitalist viewpoint. That doesn’t make it correct. A huge range of viewpoints narrowly occupies the “radical” portion, while an absolute mountain of space comparatively is given to subdivisions of capitalism. It’s a deeply silly graph.
I think I get it. Right wing groups like koch Bros and heritage institutes push the left to fracture into very niche small subsets in order to isolate making it hard for those groups to organize and easier to kill them off. Much like how a cheetah separates a young calf from the herd. So what groups are you talking about for your “huge range of viewpoints”
Totally not silly at all to get hyper specific about political ideology. I’m a liberal right center neo cat Audi rhino born a capitalist but transitioned to a socialist somewhere around 1992 when political synergy was at its peak
Nah, it aint that deep. The left wants socialism, the right wants capitalism. There are differences in views among leftists and right-wingers, but the base is in if the principle aspect of the economy should be public, or private.
Not all left want socialism. The political spectrum is not divided by “want socialism / do not want socialism”
But you’re right it’s not that deep
Liberals are rightwing.
There was a brief moment the US democratic party went social democratic, from Roosevelt to Carter and these days there’s a small resurgance with Mamdani.
But Clinton, Obama, Biden, Harris and Cuomo are all at the very least centre-right wing.
Yea what about in Canada
Liberalism is the ideology of capitalism. They emerged together and the former was formed to justify the latter. Over the years it has branched out and there are many forms such as classical liberalism, neoliberalism, social liberalism, etc. but they all defend capitalist property rights and the market. Socialism emerged as the working class response to/critique of liberalism. In the US the term only refers to social liberals, who are in reality centrists. Americans call them leftists only because centrists are slightly to the left of right-wing politics.
We’re against liberalism as a whole because it’s the ideology that justifies capitalism. We’re against social liberals because they’re seen as fence-sitting cowards and dangerous compromisers.
Canada’s two main parties are both right-wing. They support capitalism, and the rule of capitalists over the economy and government. The canadian conservative party agrees with them in that.
Or look at Australia. Their two main parties are Labour vs the liberal party (both are pretty right wing, but in that country the liberals openly position themselves to the right of the other party).
Or take Japan. Their far right party is called the liberal democrats.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberalism
Yea I get it. Liberalism is left of center. There’s no denying it. A lot of you just moved far left to the point that you all think the center moved with you. It did not. The political spectrum is not centered on socialism/capitalist. The options are not support socialism or capitalism. That is very lazy way to categorize the political spectrum. There’s more to it.
The internet is kinda crazy. Confidently wrong children who can do nothing more than copy and paste from wikipedia are trying to down talk to people with a lifetime of study of political theory.
That makes them even less credible. Considering everything else says liberalism is left of center
Here is Princeton
https://www.princeton.edu/~starr/articles/articles12/Starr_Center-left-liberalism.html
This is a discussion about liberals in the US, not the liberal party of Canada, which is decidedly left of US politics as a whole.
No, this was not specific to US.
You’re mistaken; the United States has no leftist parties.
👍
How can liberals be left when liberalism is the hegemonic ideology in the US. Both parties are liberal and both parties represent oligarch interests, the only difference between them is in how to manage the internal contradictions of the country.
It’s a failure of terms used in US politics. When we say “left” and “right” we pretty much exclusively are talking about their position in respect to one another as opposed to the actual policies the parties hold.
Republicans are much more “conservative” (right wing) than Democrats (liberals) are, so the Republicans are the right and the Democrats become the “left” as they aren’t as conservative and therefore they are “to the left” of Republicans.
If you were to look at global definitions as to what it means to be a left wing party, Democrats really don’t fit there.
It’s crazy what absolutely no knowledge about various political and philosophical movements does to a mfer.
No they’re not, I hate to break it to you but most conservatives are liberals. What you’re referring to is liberals picking up on social policies championed by the left.
Yes they are. A Liberal for most political subgroups in liberalism are left of center with the odd leaning center right. Liberalism values mostly are left of center values.
Please define liberalism for me.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberalism
Ok so based on that you should realise that every political party follows liberal economics. Hell even most conservative parties in the west pretend to stand up for liberal rights.
Economics?
They are racist though though. Non white people can still accept and prop up systemic white supremacy. Anyone who supports the US or NATO is doing this. I see it all the time among my family and friends who are not white. To leftists racism isn’t just prejudice based on race, its prejudice based on race + the power in society to enforce that as a system. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prejudice_plus_power
What if a leftist invented wojack?
Even better to my point then that the right was more effective with using it. Something about the left is super passive which is weird because they’re so loud with what they’ll do one day if ever they had the opportunity to do something about the thing they’re really mad at for that day they’ll totally do it.
I mean the internet is the worst place to do politics so idc if the right used some meme I made up. Want to do politics go outside, it was campaigning and canvassing that won the election for Zohran, it’s also what got Die Linke 10% of the vote in Germany. Real politics happens in the real world. Yeah the right wing is loud online, but they’re fucking cowards in real life. Most of the leftists I know are doing shit in real life not posting. FYI I told the wojack joke in real life then somebody posted it on the web, same with shocked pikachu also a joke told in real life. You’d be suprised how much doing stuff in real life achieves.
Everything is online. Nobody knows you knocked on doors in the neighborhood while people were eating supper. After supper people are logging into their favorite social media and engaging with content. Content which right now is leaning heavily on the right and affecting generations. I’ll argue all day that everything you said is exactly what the left is fucked and totally losing everything for the foreseeable future.
Zohran I hope to God succeeds but he’s going to need so much support online and the left removed themselves from every platform, they have no connection, structure or voices to organize online, they have no tools to assist. They all hate AI. They think every platforms is racist except fully leftist ones.
TPUSA, Heritage foundation, Cato institute, Koch Bros fucking UFC and barstool sports are all going to really amplify and sabotage Zohran. They have so many ins with business and media, they’ll all self sandstone sabotage to make sure the numbers can be amplified ONLINE to as many people as possible. The left is so far behind the times, they have no ability to counter this very foreseeable future.
Lol ok mr very online guy. You know that those media organisations you mentioned are all funded by billionaires. People like me aren’t funded because we say stuff that is uncomfortable and I don’t give a shit about appeasing advertisers. The biggest difference you can make is in the real world, being there for your community volunteering tennant unions etc. Posting is the lowest effort and easiest thing you can do. Actual struggle happens in real life.
Then why the fuck do you people show up to protest??
How does it make any sense to you that people will drive miles to some street and stand around while police kick your heads in. You cannot argue protesting publicly is effective yet engagement and capture online is not. What is really fucking crazy is how a lot of the left are convinced a public protest is Mecca while online engagement (which every one is putting money into as you said) is crap.
Almost like the people who put money into the effective methods are convincing their opponent to do the ineffective thing while they convince them the effective methods that they’re all invested in is useless.
They’re funding what you are doing for free right now. It’s insane how thick minded so many of you are. Every comment or content you all make costs them money to counter. It’s a numbers game. It costs you nothing. Take every protester willing to show up in the streets and teach them how to create media.
The left is cooked. So much brain rot on the left. You’re all calling people who have beat you in every arena as low information. Yet they beat you all, everywhere. How’d that no Kings protest work out?
Online is where opinions are shaped and formed. It’s a force multiplier. I’m so done with the left. Have no idea what they’re doing. It’s like watching people click their fingers in a park all over again.
What are you referring to? Who is you people? I’m sorry people do know if you knocked on doors, just because you’re not doing it doesn’t mean that it doesn’t get results.
I have done it.
Why would you knock on someone’s door? What’s the point?